The scenario in my sketch was a water series in a derby I ran. Two long swims, gunners are sitting behind shrubs.
My dog took a beautiful line to the go bird (G2). She gets on shore, she's just a few feet from the bird when I see her stop and sniff the air; she then merrily trots down the shore and picks up the wrong bird. When it came time to send her for the 2nd bird, she wanted to pick up the bird she already got. She obviously thought the first bird she retrieved was the bird thrown by G2.
This is why I was thinking bird boy help, as she is lost and not being self employed.
Her poison bird skills are much better now than then, so maybe that will help.
Last edited by mitty; 01-24-2013 at 04:19 PM.
Great thread topic, Renee!
Originally Posted by mitty
If you throw the double yourself and walk back you are adding a lot to the senerio for a young dog. I would rather fix the problem before adding to it.
As far as getting "lost" I would say the dog was not lost or self employed on the first bird. She just made a wrong decision at a crucial point I would handle instead of help. No collar correction the handle is correction enough. On the second bird she was "lost" I would help but then again if you handle on the first bird and pick it up she would not likely get lost on the second. To me this would be truely showing her what she did wrong.
Last edited by Steve Shaver; 01-24-2013 at 11:25 AM.
Teach the reverse double (short #1, long #2) before/while you teach the conventional double. Start wide spread so the short is not conflicting with the long. Running past a fall or scent is a fundamental skill any field trial dog or hunting dog for that matter needs. Separate your guns by at least 100yds in distance so it's black and white to the dog. Once the dog is proficient with that teach the conventional double. Remember you can over due anything! You can also teach the concept with hand thrown bumpers to start, throw a short and then throw one long. Progress so the dog is running over the top of the short to get the long.
Your question was "How would you train/handle a young dog on this concept". My answers above would be assuming the dog has been TAUGHT the concept first. In teaching I would start off short doing singles past a bag full of birds in plain sight and down wind then add to it as you progress. You could start with the bag of birds quite a ways off the line to the mark and gradually move it closer.
This sort of what I was doing with my stand alones, only the bag of birds was hidden from the dog and I was retired. I will back up a few steps and make sure she can do this.
Originally Posted by Steve Shaver
Yesterday when I posted I had visions of working on this some more but today...it is 20 and raining! My car is coated with ice. Dog training looks like something that is never gonna happen.
I'm wondering if I need to do more of these.
Originally Posted by jeff evans
Surprising that this has stayed on topic. There are many directions it could take based on a test which is deliberately set up so that the dog winds the memory bird enroute to the last bird down. I for one would not spend much time working on that with a young dog. As someone wiser than me once said "just because you have to eat s@it from time to time doesn't mean you should practice it".
A Judge's reaction -
As a derby judge I score this as a bad test. Yes ... training, testing and derby
tests have 'evolved' for all the reasons known and imagined, but there are givens
that ask for moderation not judging by elimination.
First of all Mitty's example is about derby dogs ... dogs under 24 months; dogs
owned and handled by a wide range of folks ... 1st timers, seasoned handlers &
pros. Derby judges should 'sample' the field with moderate opening tests and
"progress from there". Terrain/quality of water, access to each and a knowledge
of local weather/wind patterns all are vital when planning tests for young dogs.
Mitty's pattern is an abbreviated version of an on-line set of marks - usually 3 -
and regardless of sequence in the example is an 'out-of-order' double, which to
a dog (particularly a young dog) looks equal distance. The TRAP is the cross wind.
This test was a favorite of Bing Gruenwald's & I watched great marking All-Age
dogs blow thru the falls, switch, handle and get picked up.
This test whether as a double or as a triple must be taught as singles with the
guns out, vary the sequence and after dog has learned the test repeat as
multiples ... in various locations.
As a derby test judge over the years - 48 minor stakes, 30 derbies - I have never
trapped young dogs requiring them to run past wind blown scent from a shorter
gun/fall to a longer fall.
If an out-of-order test for derby dogs is to be considered there must be adequate
space between the lines to falls and if 'out-of-order' the short fall must be thrown
the opposite direction so the dog going first for the longer bird is lining/running
away from the wind blown scent.
With the unfortunate advent in 1992 (thereabouts) of RAC's Proposal 3, a derby
dog handling is mandatory elimination. Therefore, judges today, notwithstanding
the propensity for 200 & 300 yard derby marks, should strive to set tests that
reward marking, memory, style along with fair and reasonable response (by judges)
as to handler movement/conduct on the line.
I don't want to bash the trial, I want to learn how to compete.
I learned a lot about handling and holes in my training by entering a few derbies. After each one I worked real hard to get better, then entered another to see where I was at.
We got a lot better. If this concept isn't something I shouldn't worry about, I appreciate that advice. But if this is something I'm going to see in the all age stakes I want to train my dog for it. We have aged out of derby, I will run her in quals this spring.
Thanks all, this is helpful.
Last edited by mitty; 01-24-2013 at 08:49 PM.
Reason: typo (should changed to shouldn't)