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Thread: How do you train/handle young dog on this concept?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Golden Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illini Coot Killr View Post
    I don't want to practice trash but who hasn't had the wind change direction in the middle of a test/trial? Shouldn't you be prepared?

    I just order your materials by the way!
    The problem isn't that wind changes direction. The problem is that your dog doesn't trust his eyes. At a very early age your pup should of been trained on marks in a big cut field where he could learn to trust his eyes and not relie on his nose to scent game.
    But to fix this or try to fix this issue from happening you should train marks picking up short first then long no matter what order the marks fell. And you should train on birds as much as possible. That way scent is not as much a factor.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Scott Adams's Avatar
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    There is a big difference between asking a dog to run past scent in an area where he has aleady picked up a bird, and running past scent where it has not.
    I'd be careful with this one. If they get too good at running past the latter, you will pay a price. Same thing as doing too many poison birds.
    I'm happy if my dogs will cast off of a scented area. I don't want them too eager to ignore their nose. It is not a trait we want in dogs, when looking for the best markers. Sometimes stuff happens in trials & tests, like wind changes. Practicing for that bad luck might not be the way to go.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I am by far most in agreement with EdA. The concept is surely valid to train on MINUS THE WIND. But when some factor, or set of factors clearly makes a test a trick, and unfair, why practice trash?

    Evan
    What are you (I don't mean just Evan) identifying as the concept here on this test?? And/or the trick or unfair part???

    Because I can identify several concepts that I regularly see at tests and train on, such as:

    - Long go bird on a double?

    - Winding one bird on the way to another?

    - Semi-retired gunners?

    - tightness of the gunners?

    I am reminded what Dennis Bath told me when we were discussing whether a particular concept used at a test was a trick or not. He said, "Personally, I don't like it; I think it is a trick. I would like to say that I would never do that as a judge, but I said the same thing years ago about retired guns, and you see how well that has worked out for me."

    I'm just curious as to what concept everyone considers the "trick" or "unfair" here. Or is it the combination?, or the level of dogs?

  4. #34
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    What bothers me about the wind factor in a test that uses wind this way is 1) not all dogs get the same test if the wind is variable, and 2) it is an easier test for dogs with poor noses.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member Golden Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    What bothers me about the wind factor in a test that uses wind this way is 1) not all dogs get the same test if the wind is variable, and 2) it is an easier test for dogs with poor noses.
    Does that dog really have a poor nose or does that dog run straighter LINE and is he a better marker?????
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    What bothers me about the wind factor in a test that uses wind this way is 1) not all dogs get the same test if the wind is variable, and 2) it is an easier test for dogs with poor noses.
    1- the wind is almost always variable - and scenting conditions almost always change as a test goes on.

    2- not necessarily so. You assume that the dog with a poor nose will run by the memory bird enroute to the go bird and that the go bird is really the tough bird or "key bird" of the test. But what if the memory bird is really the "key bird" of the test, because of bird placement, wind terrain etc. and now that the dog has picked up the go bird 1st, it now has to pull out the tough memory bird.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Main View Post
    What are you (I don't mean just Evan) identifying as the concept here on this test?? And/or the trick or unfair part???

    Because I can identify several concepts that I regularly see at tests and train on, such as:

    - Long go bird on a double?

    - Winding one bird on the way to another?

    - Semi-retired gunners?

    - tightness of the gunners?

    I am reminded what Dennis Bath told me when we were discussing whether a particular concept used at a test was a trick or not. He said, "Personally, I don't like it; I think it is a trick. I would like to say that I would never do that as a judge, but I said the same thing years ago about retired guns, and you see how well that has worked out for me."

    I'm just curious as to what concept everyone considers the "trick" or "unfair" here. Or is it the combination?, or the level of dogs?
    Door #2; Winding one bird on the way to another. I don't have a problem with all-age dogs being required to do such things. In fact it's good training for dogs at that level. Asking Derby dogs - the entry-level stake - to do such things circumvents the nature of the stake IMO. It's about marking more than training. I have no problem with any other elements you listed for Derby dogs as long as they're used judiciously.

    Evan
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Door #2; Winding one bird on the way to another. I don't have a problem with all-age dogs being required to do such things. In fact it's good training for dogs at that level. Asking Derby dogs - the entry-level stake - to do such things circumvents the nature of the stake IMO. It's about marking more than training. I have no problem with any other elements you listed for Derby dogs as long as they're used judiciously.

    Evan
    Actually, isn't the reason because it's contrary to the way most train derby dogs? I.E. The long bird is almost always the memory bird.

    What's the penalty for the dog honoring it's nose and picking up the short bird first?

    I didn't think judges could dictate the order of pickup?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    IMO, it's trick and unfair when the dog is in the area of the fall for one bird and smells the bird from another fall. It is not a trick when the dog is sent for one bird and smells another fall on the way to the area of the fall of the bird I sent for. I train my dogs, including derby dogs, to go to the area of the fall of the bird I sent for.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    IMO, it's trick and unfair when the dog is in the area of the fall for one bird and smells the bird from another fall. It is not a trick when the dog is sent for one bird and smells another fall on the way to the area of the fall of the bird I sent for. I train my dogs, including derby dogs, to go to the area of the fall of the bird I sent for.
    I agree with you there Howard! That's the part I didn't like.

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