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Thread: How do you train/handle young dog on this concept?

  1. #41
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    IMO, it's trick and unfair when the dog is in the area of the fall for one bird and smells the bird from another fall. It is not a trick when the dog is sent for one bird and smells another fall on the way to the area of the fall of the bird I sent for. I train my dogs, including derby dogs, to go to the area of the fall of the bird I sent for.
    I think this was one of canuckkiller's points, I didn't understand it so thanks Howard.

    Another element in the scenario is that the go bird has been placed behind a shrub. A dog taking a perfect line to the fall will be within a few feet of it, but it will neither see nor smell the bird unless it runs around the shrub.
    Renee P

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I am by far most in agreement with EdA. The concept is surely valid to train on MINUS THE WIND. But when some factor, or set of factors clearly makes a test a trick, and unfair, why practice trash?

    Evan
    Talking field trials, why is this learned skill trash? And what makes this test trash, no stake in general, just field trials in general? How can a dog be proficient on an inverted triple if he can't pass a short fall?


    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    IMO, it's trick and unfair when the dog is in the area of the fall for one bird and smells the bird from another fall. It is not a trick when the dog is sent for one bird and smells another fall on the way to the area of the fall of the bird I sent for. I train my dogs, including derby dogs, to go to the area of the fall of the bird I sent for.
    Agreed! I start this concept as little puppies with hand thrown birds and bumpers.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Main View Post
    Actually, isn't the reason because it's contrary to the way most train derby dogs? I.E. The long bird is almost always the memory bird.

    What's the penalty for the dog honoring it's nose and picking up the short bird first?

    I didn't think judges could dictate the order of pickup?
    I'm not arguing against a long bird being down last, or running past a shorter bird. I'm arguing only against requiring a field of Derby dogs to run through that scent cone en route to the mark they were sent for. To do so is, to me, a confession as a judge that you don't know how to place birds well enough to get separation without throwing a 'trick' like this at them.

    What's the penalty if a dog honors its nose and picks up the short bird first? None by rule. The penalty is how that event will influence his performance when he's sent for it again. I just think that's a needless trap for Derby dogs. Use bird placement. Use terrain. Use proximity concepts. But why throw a trap like this at dogs that are only required to mark, and are working in the entry-level class.

    This isn't open revolt against the sport. It's my opinion.

    Evan
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  4. #44
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff evans View Post
    Talking field trials, why is this learned skill trash? And what makes this test trash, no stake in general, just field trials in general? How can a dog be proficient on an inverted triple if he can't pass a short fall?
    Hopefully Ed will chime in and tell me if I'm right, but the issue isn't the dog running past a short fall. I believe it's what Howard said in the response you quoted---dog is in the area of the fall and winds another mark, which is on the same line.
    Renee P

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I'm not arguing against a long bird being down last, or running past a shorter bird. I'm arguing only against requiring a field of Derby dogs to run through that scent cone en route to the mark they were sent for. To do so is, to me, a confession as a judge that you don't know how to place birds well enough to get separation without throwing a 'trick' like this at them.

    What's the penalty if a dog honors its nose and picks up the short bird first? None by rule. The penalty is how that event will influence his performance when he's sent for it again. I just think that's a needless trap for Derby dogs. Use bird placement. Use terrain. Use proximity concepts. But why throw a trap like this at dogs that are only required to mark, and are working in the entry-level class.

    This isn't open revolt against the sport. It's my opinion.

    Evan
    I can't argue with that....

    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Hopefully Ed will chime in and tell me if I'm right, but the issue isn't the dog running past a short fall. I believe it's what Howard said in the response you quoted---dog is in the area of the fall and winds another mark, which is on the same line.
    I was responding to your op where you said the dog whiffed the short bird enroute to the long go bird? Didn't sound like the dog ever got to the fall? Two really different issues to work on, both require a set of skills that are necessity. In retrospect the illustration looks like equidistant marks, the longer mark looks maybe 20 yards longer? Looks like a tricky test with the wind factor

  6. #46
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    I would be opposed to this in an All Age test. That is, a test where a dog winds a short bird on the way to the go bird.

    We are supposed to be evaluating marking. A very important part of marking is the quality of a dog's nose. Why set up a test where a dog that honors its eyes by going to a long bird that is the last bird down, must ignore its nose as it runs by a shorter bird that has been thrown earlier in the sequence

    Yes, you will get answers. But, probably the wrong ones
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  7. #47
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    I would be opposed to this in an All Age test. That is, a test where a dog winds a short bird on the way to the go bird.

    We are supposed to be evaluating marking. A very important part of marking is the quality of a dog's nose. Why set up a test where a dog that honors its eyes by going to a long bird that is the last bird down, must ignore its nose as it runs by a shorter bird that has been thrown earlier in the sequence

    Yes, you will get answers. But, probably the wrong ones
    Is it only where the last bird down is the longest that you have a problem with it? If so, why?





    A dog shouldn't be penalized for honoring it's nose.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Main View Post
    Is it only where the last bird down is the longest that you have a problem with it? If so, why?
    No

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Main View Post
    A dog shouldn't be penalized for honoring it's nose.

    I think that is what I said.
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  9. #49
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    I think Ted is right on about this. Nothing wrong with longer Go birds. That's not the issue. In the OP's set-up both the wind (and scent cone), plus the proximity of the other fall exert influence on a dog that does not reflect marking ability.

    Evan
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  10. #50
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff evans View Post
    I can't argue with that....



    I was responding to your op where you said the dog whiffed the short bird enroute to the long go bird? Didn't sound like the dog ever got to the fall? Two really different issues to work on, both require a set of skills that are necessity. In retrospect the illustration looks like equidistant marks, the longer mark looks maybe 20 yards longer? Looks like a tricky test with the wind factor
    Hah I now see that it would have been more clear of me to write "dog is in area of the fall of the go-bird and whiffs the memory bird" but if I knew enough to write that at the time I prolly wouldn't have needed to start this thread. I was hoping this detail was apparent from the sketch.

    I don't know if it matters, but one of the details in the sketch is that the memory bird IS the long bird. By 20 yards? I don't know, it depends on the size of your computer screen, I think !
    Renee P

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