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Thread: Health certifications Gone too far?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    WRL


    Please take a look at my comments. I am not unfamiliar with genetics and breeding and do have more than a layman's knowledge, probably more than you suspect. I am certainly not pompous by any means. And when I say improving the breed I also think about health and working qualities. Remember that I am a golden person and goldens have a big problem.

    Also, just because one is a breeder does not mean that one understands the science of genetics.
    I'm not saying you are pompous. I am saying the STATEMENT ("breeding to improve the breed") is.

    You are just stating here what I have seen stated a multitude of times by LOTS of breeders. I was addressing the STATEMENT of "breeding to improve the breed".

    Second, because we all have our own goals, that is what we (breeders) breed for. Its VERY subjective because we have no "objective" body to govern breeding. And then in order to "maintain objectiveness" we'd have to have the "policing the police" system for checks and balances.

    In my OPINION, breeding a dog AFFECTED by a polygenetic disease, it not only NO "bettering the breed" its also NOT "doing no harm".....

    Something that is a simple recessive, I agree with you that if the individual was that spectacular, then you could incorporate it into the breeding program with the idea you could breed out the undesired gene within two generations.

    WRL

  2. #32
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    WRL

    Thank you for clarifying. My respect to you as a knowledgeable and ethical breeder.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  3. #33
    Senior Member labsforme's Avatar
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    Lee, get off your high horse. We all have hopes of "improving " the breed. At least for field trials JK. I have an EIC carrier that will probably be bred way down the road if she gets her FC. I will be selective in who I breed her to.
    Steve S just an FYI Air Express was a littermate to Wanapum Darts Dandy not Powder. And yes Air Express did very well in some of the dogs he produced.He was HOF .Produced Trieven Thunderhead , Itchin To Go, Winsome Cargo, and many more. He was a very influential sire and is behind Harley, Skywatch Radar, Baracuda Blue,to name just a few.
    Last edited by labsforme; 01-28-2013 at 09:13 AM.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Sue Kiefer's Avatar
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    This is my opinion and mine alone....................
    Goldens (the breed) are no different in their own genetic issues.
    The breeders are different in their thinking......................
    It is far worse now than it used to be............
    Too many dogs(both bitches and studs) are washed out of folks minds for health issues(too many are washed even because of known relative effected or carriers of some known genetic disorder).
    Our gene pool is tiny especially in the field avenue. Cancer is lumped into a big nasty word. Cancer of ? I ask folks................
    I think Mike if you want to breed your dog AND you know what his /her health issues are than it is your own business just be straight up front with me as a puppy buyer.
    Never confuse activity with success.

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  5. #35
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Sue Kiefer

    I think that within the last year and a half there was an article in GR News discussing this issue of washing out dogs for health issues. That is where my comment comes in suggesting breeding to get good traits and breeding subsequently to eliminate, or minimize the undesirable traits in the line.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  6. #36
    Senior Member JustinS's Avatar
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    One article I read put information into understandable form for me when I first started learning about genetics was this.

    Polygenic Inheritance and Disorders

    The inheritance of polygenic traits depends upon the interaction of two or more genes. This is sometimes confused with the idea of multiple alleles, which are just different forms of the same gene. However, the two concepts are related when discussing the probable phenotype resulting from a particular genotype. Such diseases as diabetes mellitus or heart disease are not the consequence of single gene inheritance, likewise physical traits such as height, weight or even behavior are all examples of quantitative traits whose expression depends upon several different factors. These include the number of genes involved, the number of alleles each gene has, and how much the phenotypic variability depends upon environmental interactions. Unlike qualitative traits such as blood type or other multiple allelic genes that show an unambiguous phenotype, quantitative polygenic traits show a range expression

    Many different diseases show polygenic inheritance patterns. Lets say two dogs with healthy hips are mated and produce offspring with the result that some of the puppies are completely crippled, some of them seem normal, but x-rays show they have hip dysplasia, and some of the puppies are not affected. This gradation from severely dysplastic to normal is the result of a cumulation of mutations that cause the disease to finally reach a threshold level and to then be expressed. Each of the parents has some of the mutations that cause the disease, but not enough to express the disease in themselves. However, when the two are bred, some of the their puppies get enough of the "bad" genes to have the severe form of the disease, some of the puppies get enough to show the moderate form of the disease and others were lucky and did not get enough of the deleterious genes to be affected, but are most likely carriers of some the disease genes as their parents.

    Because environmental factors can play such a large part in the expression of diseases that are polygenic, many people are not aware they carry these genes until their offspring accumulate enough of the defective genes to express the disease. This makes these types of disease hard to eradicate.

    This article was found at - http://www.bookrags.com/research/pol...disorders-wog/
    Last edited by JustinS; 01-28-2013 at 09:40 AM.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    I just have to add that I know of one breeder who has quite a following, actually a cult following. Said breeder has quite a website and makes many claims about healthy dogs and multipurpose dogs. Observation of dogs reveals a temperament problem, actually aggression.

    Health clearances are good.

    I will leave it at that. I won't even mention the breed.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  8. #38
    Senior Member Sue Kiefer's Avatar
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    My comments ARE NOT directed at anyone . It is simply my opinion. I am NOT a member of GRCA so I did NOT read any such article. I simply stated my own opinion as I see it from hearing/reading gossip over the past 25+ yrs. in Goldens.
    Sue
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  9. #39
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue Kiefer View Post
    My comments ARE NOT directed at anyone . It is simply my opinion. I am NOT a member of GRCA so I did NOT read any such article. I simply stated my own opinion as I see it from hearing/reading gossip over the past 25+ yrs. in Goldens.
    Sue
    Too bad you didn't read it. It supports your opinion.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  10. #40
    Senior Member Golddogs's Avatar
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    I do not breed. I do own a breed that has it's fair share of avoidable problems.

    I feel you cannot have too many tests for genetic problems. Each new discovery allows those who do breed many more choices to make sound decisions on a case by case basis. By having all of this data at ther disposal, they can work around known defects, minimizing the risk of passing them on. In the end, it is all on the breeder and choosing wisely.
    Never trust a dog to watch your food!

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