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Thread: Health certifications Gone too far?

  1. #21
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    EIC has gone too far. People avoid it at all costs and lots of really nice dogs are rarely bred to. Instead its the same ones over and over. I don't think we have gone too far when it comes to joint soundness.

  2. #22
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claimsadj View Post
    EIC has gone too far. People avoid it at all costs and lots of really nice dogs are rarely bred to. Instead its the same ones over and over. I don't think we have gone too far when it comes to joint soundness.
    Maybe it has. Consider that Hip Dysplasia is polygenic---involving more than one gene. Also it is a genetic trait influenced by environmental factors.

    I believe that poor hip conformation may result from other factors, perhaps trauma at a young age or rapid growth, but I would really like to hear from a vet.


    Isn't hip dysplasia really a phenotype?
    Last edited by gdgnyc; 01-28-2013 at 09:03 AM.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post

    If I were really interested in improving the breed and profit and money were not factors, I would breed, keep the progeny, test when appropriate, and cull what I didn't like. Now it seems like I have a plan to truly improve the breed.
    This may need to be a new thread, but this comment (and you are not the first to state it) I find is about as pompous as pompous comes. Truly, as a breeder, who feels they are sooooo good or soooo special that the breed "cannot survive without them"......That is really what the statement "breeding to improve the breed" is all about. As I stated earlier, these things are so subjective that there is not one person that the breed could not do without.

    I see it more as "do no harm" to the breed. But for an "individual" to think that THEY are "improving the breed" is bs.

    We breed what we think will do "well" for our venue. The conformation people have done so (and look what they have). The field people also will go to the extreme. We do what we think will produce a competitor. That is not an "objective" goal. Its very subjective.

    It really does become "policing the police who police the police"........

    WRL

  4. #24
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    My apologies. What I really wanted to point out is that the wealthy of England did not have to worry about money. They treated their dogs as animals and were quite aware of the necessity of culling by destroying unsuitable animals.

    I did not mean to take a swipe at you or other breeders. I do think that many would do well to learn more about genetics.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    My apologies. What I really wanted to point out is that the wealthy of England did not have to worry about money. They treated their dogs as animals and were quite aware of the necessity of culling by destroying unsuitable animals.

    I did not mean to take a swipe at you or other breeders. I do think that many would do well to learn more about genetics.
    I did not take it personally. I was making a statement that you see breeders stating what you stated all the time. "I'm breeding to improve the breed".....

    That's basically what Mike is saying. He has evaluated a dysplastic dog as being suitable for breeding based on HIS criteria. Implying he is doing right by the breed....."improving the breed" (although its not flat out stated like lots of others do).

    As I said, I think its more like "Do no harm".......

    He's taken a HT titled dog that is AFFECTED with a disease and determined it brings enough to the table that it should be bred. That even though its affected, its genes will improve the breed. I disagree. Breeding an AFFECTED dog of a polygenetic trait isn't "bettering the breed" NOR is it "doing no harm".....with a simple recessive, you could breed an affected and within two generations end up with not only a non-affected dog but a CLEAR dog of this gene. Not so with a polygenetic trait.

    WRL

  6. #26
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    WRL


    Please take a look at my comments. I am not unfamiliar with genetics and breeding and do have more than a layman's knowledge, probably more than you suspect. I am certainly not pompous by any means. And when I say improving the breed I also think about health and working qualities. Remember that I am a golden person and goldens have a big problem.

    Also, just because one is a breeder does not mean that one understands the science of genetics.

    Edit: I would like to add that I have had dogs for over 30 years and have never bred a dog. I am always hoping to get something special, health being of primary importance, and breeding the dog.
    Last edited by gdgnyc; 01-28-2013 at 09:49 AM. Reason: My last line
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  7. #27
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    I see that there is more to this thread than I suspected. I don't mean to be offensive to anyone.

    I do see lots of comments on breeding (I won't get into them) that really show a lack of deeper understanding.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  8. #28
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    I was told many years ago that Super Powder had bad hips and was thus retired because of the problem and his brother Air Express was good..The problem lies in that Super Powder passed the gene pool on to the next generation a lot better than Air Express did..If the story is correct ,I don't know ..Maybe Ed or others may confirm this...But the fact is, some are better at passing the needed stuff on than others...Le's no throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak..Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I was told many years ago that Super Powder had bad hips and was thus retired because of the problem and his brother Air Express was good..The problem lies in that Super Powder passed the gene pool on to the next generation a lot better than Air Express did..If the story is correct ,I don't know ..Maybe Ed or others may confirm this...But the fact is, some are better at passing the needed stuff on than others...Le's no throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak..Steve S
    We are talking about polygenic factors which leads to a complicated model for expression of the hip dysplasia. Factor into that the influence of BMI. This is not a case of simple dominance and recessiveness. For example, which genes have the biggest influence? Which combination of genes is more critical? How many genes are known to be involved?
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  10. #30
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    If the gene pool is narrow, I might consider breeding the dysplastic but sound dog.
    In the case of our big three retrievers there is NO reason to breed a dysplastic dog. There are PLENTY of dogs out there that have just as good drive ,trainability,looks etc., but do not have the health issue.
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