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How do I know what training system is best for me

11K views 51 replies 28 participants last post by  Kenneth Niles Bora 
#1 ·
Everybody says pick a training system that is right for you and stick to it. I read that all the time on this site. Great advice. How do I know what training system is best for me? I've looked at all of them but the info they give about each is limited. I dont know whats in say, Hillman or Smartfetch other than what it tells me in the add. I cant go out and buy all the available traing systems,I would end up with more money in them than I would have in my pup!
Maybe my question is,what made you pick the system you picked. What about it did you like over the others and why?
 
#2 ·
a great question!
the old saying is, and I stand by it. Is read everything you can get your hands on and take everything with a grain of salt.
So how to pick? At a test, trial or fun event watch the dogs and the people and see who you like the work of. Go talk to those people and ask what/ how/ who they use or follow. Then read / view that program. If you can not wrap your mind round it move on to another. The program you use you need to feel comfie in.
So how did I choose? When I was visiting my breeder twice a week day training and tossing birds in '98-'99 they were using the brand new VHS tapes of the First Lardy Program (banner on top of this page) and had all the old stand by books of the time. The flow chart they had from gun dog training since the '80's was very very close to this brand new total retriever program. It was very easy for me to morf right into it.
 
#21 ·
Good to view all that is available. When you find one you like from all your lurking latch onto it but never stop reading or viewing articles or listening to others but you do have to sift through to see what is reliable. IMHO Good luck!!
 
#3 · (Edited)
Everybody says pick a training system that is right for you and stick to it. I read that all the time on this site. Great advice. How do I know what training system is best for me? I've looked at all of them but the info they give about each is limited. I dont know whats in say, Hillman or Smartfetch other than what it tells me in the add. I cant go out and buy all the available traing systems,I would end up with more money in them than I would have in my pup!
Maybe my question is,what made you pick the system you picked. What about it did you like over the others and why?
I reviewed several and chose the one I most easily understood.
 
#4 ·
grnhd, this is the same problem I am having so two things I am doing - first I found two local trainers with an hour of me that are willing to work with me - don't plan on leaving my dogs there. I plan to spend a few sessiosn with each to decide which one I like the best. They have also spent time explaining their philosophy and system as well. Second, I joined bowwowflix so I can rent the different training programs to review them and see what seems like I could follow it and achieve the results I am looking for and then I will go drop the money on the program. Now my pup is only 13 weeks, so like I said I am reviewing as many of the DVDs as I can (Lardy, Graham, Hillman) not incorporating any one program yet. I'm hoping that with a few sessions with the two trainers - Actually get to watch them work older and more advance dogs and the DVD review I will find something I understand and can follow. Hope this helps.
 
#5 ·
grnhd,

I don't want to oversimplify this and I might ruffle some feathers by saying so, but my feeling is that all of the programs really aren't all that different! Picking the "RIGHT" one isn't as hard as it sounds since virtually every program was written by someone who got their start in pretty much the same place. See how many of them reference Rex Carr. They all seem to have trained with Rex or with someone who worked for Rex. I think the general plan for almost every program came from Rex's general philosophy.

The vast majority of commercially available programs will contain mostly the same general flow chart, most of the same drills, and will vary mildly on order of this drill before that. Sure, some have important steps in different orders, like they'll tell you to collar condition before force fetch, others after. Still, this is a perfect example of something that can make a big difference for an individual dog or trainer, but something you won't know until you've trained a dog or two. The catch, though, is that neither program is any more right than the other is wrong. Fact is, they all work.

I really feel like the repeated advice on here that everyone keeps giving should be: "Pick a program that you have access to and stick with it." One caveat to that might be that a program is more right for you if you have access to experienced training partners (whether pros or experienced amateurs) who have achieved with their pups the same things you want for yours, using this program. No matter what program you choose, you'll find places where your dog doesn't do what the dog in the video did. If everyone you know used Program A and you are struggling with how to get your dog through his unique issues in Program B, you will be more tempted than ever to do things the Program A way (not "sticking with it"), whereas if you know someone who's been successful using Program B, you'll be able to ask their advice and be more comfortable sticking with it.

Just my $0.02 from a guy who's trained a whopping 1.5 dogs in his life...worth every penny you paid for it.
 
#11 · (Edited)
grnhd,

I don't want to oversimplify this and I might ruffle some feathers by saying so, but my feeling is that all of the programs really aren't all that different! Picking the "RIGHT" one isn't as hard as it sounds since virtually every program was written by someone who got their start in pretty much the same place. See how many of them reference Rex Carr. They all seem to have trained with Rex or with someone who worked for Rex. I think the general plan for almost every program came from Rex's general philosophy.



I have to mostly agree with Chad. Most programs, whether professional or not, are based on one or two different schools. They have just been tweaked for each persons style or dogs they encounter.





Both of the above statements are true and you in the long run will do the same. You will find your own ways to implement the system you pick. If it were as easy as picking a program and following it step by step to a perfect dog everybody would have a perfect dog.
I basically started out using the old Tri-Tronics Retriever Training book written by Jim Dobbs then advanced into the Lardy stuff but as I went along I have tweaked things to work for me. In the last year or so with the Hillman stuff coming out I use some of that. That's what you call learning and it never stops. Always be open minded enough to look at something new or different. I dont agree with everything that anybody says no matter who they are.
I think it is a great idea to look at everything you can and take what you need from each but if your brand new you need to start out with something to follow then with experience you can expand. I think brand new just starting out I would go with the Hillman stuff and progress from there. I use some stuff that he does and I totally disagree with some but I like his general philosophy. Also how far you go depends on your goals and how serious your are about training
 
#6 ·
I have to mostly agree with Chad. Most programs, whether professional or not, are based on one or two different schools. They have just been tweaked for each persons style or dogs they encounter.

Pick the one that works for you and your dog. That is how you will be most successful. Also, may need to mix and match. Don't have to stick to one program for anything. Again, it's about what works for you and the dog. So and so's program may work for XYZ dog, but another's program may work better for dog ABC.

To reinterate Chad, find resources that will help you understand the programs. Maybe see if there are fellow club member's or someone that has videos that may let you borrow them to see which ones you want to buy. Or find books and/or someone to train with that follows a particular program and see how it works for them. When I started, I found a few books. But really, my best investment was time and gas money to go train with as many different people as I could.

Eric W.
 
#7 ·
Great question and I especially like Ken Bora's response. I would add that I would also ask the breeder for his input and his experience with training methods.
 
#8 ·
There are similar philosophies within the better programs. But there are substantive differences also. To pick one for yourself why not visit the sites for each, check out the information given. See how they're presented, and decide which appeals to you best...which one you can relate to most readily. How much of a look are you getting into the program, and do you think, based on that, you can follow it? Will you be able to get support or feedback when you need it?

You're right to want to choose carefully. I have been a consistent voice in opposition to new trainers "reading everything" or "watching everything" they can get their hands on because of the differences in the flow of information, and because a new trainer doesn't have adequate experience to sort through all that and keep his/her dog on track. It makes a difference.

Good luck!

Evan
 
#19 · (Edited)
..............You're right to want to choose carefully. I have been a consistent voice in opposition to new trainers "reading everything" or "watching everything" they can get their hands on because of the differences in the flow of information, and because a new trainer doesn't have adequate experience.........
Evan

Mr. Graham Sir,
I am shocked you would type such. As an author of a training program, how? How I say (my Foghorn Leghorn Voice) can you say such a thing? Not a rhetorical question. If a person does not read everything available how can they see what programs and right for them and what are not? Now I did not say hop scotch or as that ever so Great line from RTF member Bon so aptly stated "You Cannot Build A Retriever À la carte"!!!
But gosh man how phase II do you want these kids to be? I am trying very very very very hard to be peanut ish but this goofy little typed text of yours on a goofy little retriever message board actually makes me very very angry.
So Tell me Mr. Dog training program promoter Sir. The next time some kid pipes up and says " I am using water dog and I was wondering blah blah blah" Are you going to type back "You should stick with Water Dig and read nothing else at all because any other knowledge will confuse you and I am sure you will be unable to process it"
OR
Will you link him off to Smart Works Volume 1 - 666????????????
Dude?. . . just... dude????
 
#9 ·
Great question, as someone who is planning ahead to prepare myself for my first training of a pup, I have been wondering the same thing. I have been looking into everyone's opinions on all the different training programs to see what may fit me best. The responses will be helpful to me making a decision as well.
 
#10 ·
the "training system" that I know was taught to me by those nearest to me, I learned from my brother Clint and John Luther initially and then had men like George Wilson and Roy McFall teach me some of the subtleties of the game, of all those guys,none had a "real system", three of them competed against Lardy, one trained with Mike up close and personal at one point in his career...All have used an E collar to various degrees

Nowdays I train using a method that has come full circle, its not tennis shoe,its not cookie based, its more of a hybrid " Amish" without the running..its greatest influence come from Mr McFall, its intensity comes from John Luther, and Clint has condensed it into a language I can understand and buy into and execute
 
#12 ·
I think you need to purchase a few programs, study them and then choose the one that best suits you and your expectations. Hopfully you choose a good breeding, why not do the same with a training program. Look at it like this. You checked out a few girls before your picked a wife? You looked at a few different jobs before you settled in on a career? Maybe you pick a program that just don't work for you? So what, get another and move on. You never fail doing something. You only fail when you do nothing. Just my opinion. Don
 
#13 ·
You nailed it and for a guy who trained 1.5 dogs that's about the best response of insight I have seen . It's all a round robin. Most of the contemporary training goes back in a general way to Rex Carr. Venues are different, choose your method, stick with it and use your resource people wisely. Semantics are often confusing ,the program you choose must speak the same language you speak or train in. Thank You Chad !
 
#15 · (Edited)
If I read you post correctly, this is your first dog. If so, I don't think it makes that much difference as long as you pick one of the major programs most often talked about on RTF.

For $25 you can buy Mike Lardy's Vol 1 of his Retriever Journal articles. From this you will get a sense of his training program.

Smartworks has a number of one disc dvds that deal with a specific topic: ob, puppy stuff, etc. You can by one of his dvds relatively cheap and get a sense of his program. His website has some video samples but I haven't watched them but it is more information.

For puppy stuff: Jackie Mertens aslo has a video sample. For more puppy stuff: Bill Hillman has a website and has some training videos posted also.

From these items you will have sufficient information, I think, to decide on a program.

Hope this helps.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Thanks for the replys folks.
Couple of things....first,you see it mentioned all the time and it was mentioned a few times here,to get with a club or mentor.How do you do that? The closest HRC club according to the website is in TN,about 2 hours away. Lets be realistic, I wont be able to make the drive very often with the hectic schedule of life. Once a month on saturday,yes,working with somebody 3-4 times a week,no. I dont know anybody around here that trains dogs although I'm sure there is,how do you meet these people?
Second,this isnt my first dog. I've "trained" 3 counting the one thats in my avatar pic. She's 9 now and showing her age and its got me to thinking of getting a puppy. By "trained" I mean dog sits steady at side(or in blind) and able to retrieve multiple marks under gun fire she sees fall. No handling skills,either one of us. I got the dogs to that point and decided thats good enough. I've decided I want the new dog(when I get one) to be able to do more. I want to learn how to do that before I get a pup. There's been a lot of times over the past 9 years that it sure would have been nice to handle her.
Oh yeah,I used water dog...vhs...to train my other dogs. It got me started but I sure felt like it left something to be desired.
 
#17 ·
grnhd,

Even if you only train once a month with a group, that will be the biggest help you get when it comes to training your dog. Having someone else watch how you work you dog and give you pointers is priceless. It really does not matter what program you use, but if you training crew all, or mostly, using program A then it would be nice to speak to their language.

Also did you check into the AKC training groups in your area. And you never know where all those fine people in the group 2 hours away live. The group that i have just recently gotten in with, over an hours drive to where they train, has members that live 20 mins from me. Made an instant Saturday training buddy.

Just thoughts. Good luck with you new pup.
 
#18 ·
x2 on what Benjamin said. Our HRC club in Michigan has members that stretch the entire length of the state. What they get from being members of the club isn't always the opportunity to attend club training events. Sometimes, they attend an event or two, meet some people, and find out that there is a training group, or two or three people looking to start one, just around the corner from them. Give it a shot! Even if it doesn't change your life, the most you will be out is an enjoyable Saturday spent around mostly like-minded folks playing with your dog!
 
#22 · (Edited)
I agree with Evan, one method is all you need. Get yourself a copy of Wolters Water Dog and you will be in the colors every time.
it is a revolutionary rapid training method.
 
#26 ·
Hey , I learned the use of the Dobbs place boards system in one winter afternoon in a garage in Boise....his original Tri Tronics book with Ms Woodyard is still a very good training manual

most people dont realize that Jim Dobbs was a Rex Carr assistant before they parted ways..

Mr Dobbs know his stuff when it comes to dog training
 
#24 ·
The the janitor had $1.00 for every indirect commercial, Wait, forget him! If I had a $1.00 for every indirect commercial.... I could retire!
 
#25 ·
I say, look at the responses here, see who out of the Lardy's, Dobbs, Dokken's , Smartwork etc are here giving you free advice and will be available with only a phone call if you purchase their system?? There is only one I know of that will drop what he is doing, answer you call or PM , and try to talk you through it because you bought his system....Evan!! The rest ,I will almost guarantee , will blow you off and never return your call!!
 
#39 ·
Not sure about the other programs, but Rick Stawski (Fowl Dawgs) has answered my calls and emails on more than one occasion. I have never met him personally, but you'd never know it based on his honest and timely feedback/assistance.
 
#28 ·
E-collar basics with FF the foundation are for the most part about the same, if contemporary. The next levels get a little dicy depending on your venue. The transition level as Lardy coined it is about all some of the venues need. The advanced levels can get quite interesting unless you have major field trial stake aspirations. Maybe some of the AKC master level and perhaps the HRC Grand might lend itself to some of the lower level advanced training. From my experience training with many levels and venues over the years more dogs are ruined trying to do advanced work in the field,water/land then any level other level except maybe FF ,collar conditioning. I have judged some owner handler qualifying , attached to the AKC hunt tests, and the water blinds are perhaps the least understood , training level , plus handler level, then any of the other trained responses. Again we are talking field trials just associated with the hunt tests, not part of the master stakes. A field trial is a field trial. Having said all of the above before any undertaking of what program to use, one should first attend a HRC finished test a AKC master hunt test and a AKC field trial qualifying stake and both or one amateur all age stake or open all age stake, ask many questions, be realistic on what you can do with time, money and expertise at your disposal. There is a major, major, difference on the journey from a good hunting dog to a field trial champion in the retriever games. It is a wonderful journey and I have traveled them all and is all rewarding no matter what level. Just one man's opinion.
 
#32 ·
I also respect a program that is well done. One that doesn't elicite a ton of questions. The flow charts and videos are easy to follow, and the program doesn't require you to keep purchasing. I have the same TRT program I purchased 12 years ago. And, the person behind it has had actual success using that program. I have added a puppy tape. I actually like Hillman's puppy tape a ton. It's not rocket science, but it focuses a lot on attitude. I also own Attar's common problems DVD.


While many people claim they trained with Rex, well, the man is dead. He can't refute it - except via a Quija board. There are those who claimed they trained with Rex and never really did.

Get with someone who knows more than you to train.... they can help put your training materials into perspective.
 
#34 ·
While many people claim they trained with Rex, well, the man is dead.
Get with someone who knows more than you to train....
Your whole post was very good - but I want to comment on the meat -

I never trained with Carr but seeing some of the products of his program in the 60's & 70's one could not help but be unimpressed. That included both handlers & dogs.

Over the years I have been very fortunate to have trained with some whose
GBurnett said:
accomplishments were evidenced by the pelts the had on their cabin walls
both Am & Pro. The basic is in having sufficient knowledge of background to understand what is happening.

In my day, we didn't have all the written material & DVD's to guide us. But I did work with some really good trainers & learned by observing. What I do see is a lot of people talking about using this or that but you don't hear of their dog's performance. Is the use of programs a convenient way of placing the blame elsewhere for an animal not reaching one's expectations? Like buying a big name pup to achieve instant credibility :).
 
#33 · (Edited)
How do I know what training system is best for me?
Without perspective that is an almost impossible question to answer....which reminds me of a true story.

Many years ago, the biology department of my high school was assigned the task of deciding which new textbook to purchase. Every teacher had a different opinion. This led to the idea of "let's go to another high school and listen to suggestions from other teachers not bogged down in our conflict".

The Chicago suburban high school biology text was flashy, very detailed and their teachers were emphatic about how well they and their students related to it. To put this in perspective, our high school was very "diverse". There was a gifted program and the school was located on the "rough side" of town which resulted in a 50% minority student attendance.

Many of the teachers in our group liked the book.......then one very astute member of the staff asked a simple question. How many of your students are college bound? The reply pretty much spelled out the uselessness of the advice. "Oh, 98% of our students are college bound." Beware of bias advice.

Perspective is often a harsh taskmaster.

Three issues should drive the process of picking the first retriever program a person decides to use. First, does what you know about it seem to be easy to read? Are you comfortable with it? Secondly, are there enough "users" of the program that can provide assistance. Another way of saying that is make sure the program is in the same "language" of those that you will be asking for help. Third (and most important), which are you better at...following directions or teaching? Keep in mind the best programs provide more opportunities for learning how to teach.

The final decision is often enhanced by the relief of saying "I can do this."
 
#37 · (Edited)
Clearly, there is only 1 way to train.

And each of us has shared with you our version of that 1 way!!!:cool:

(please sense the humor here)
 
#40 ·
I received notes from Jeff Finley owner trainer of Topbrass Cotton fame. Jeff had attended a seminar at Rex Carr . Many of the notes were very old and were from former students. Jeff tried to school me in the Program, but, made no sense to me at all. I successfully ruined a couple of promising young Goldens trying to follow the program. In fact I got good at ruining dogs trying to make sense of the Carr methods without having first hand knowledge of Mr. Carr being there to advise me. In 1987 about 11 years later I got a Lab puppy from a litter my brother had leased his bitch out, Lakenheath Kizzie Kay bred to FC/AFC Wilderness Harley to go. She was going to be my first real collar dog. I made contact with a just turned new Field Trial Pro Leslie Karnes. Leslie had the National Derby Champion FC/AFC Donneybrooks St Jude, plus owned a couple of double header winners and National Finalists. She was a student of Rex Carr along with a friend of hers at the time Ah! Judy something her name slips my mind at the moment but believe she had a dog called Cody with a lot of All age points, maybe Dr Ed can help out. Anyway Leslie came back from a winter trip with my girl and Leslie started to school me in the handling of her. Took her home and started to freeze on the casts AFTER GETTING NICKED. It is called clamming, but, didn't know the terminology . Brought her back up to Leslie's and she educated me on how to get out of the problem. She would always say Rex would do this or Rex would do that never giving it in her own name.

About 7 or 8 years later it started to all make sense to me. Mike Lardy came on the scene put intellectual names on them direct pressure, indirect pressure, basic, transition, advanced etc. It really started to make sense and read those notes again and again . Mike of course went on a winter trip with the late Jim Kappus before he turned pro. Jim was a Carr student of the program. Then the Curtis brothers worked for Kappus. Andy Attar and Pat Burns worked for Mike Lardy before going out on their own. I had put a young FC/AFC Mioaks Criquetpas through basics and then got help from Pat Burns for my advanced work.
Hmm! I said maybe Mr Carr was on to something. I had a nice new puppy that was ready for basics, ran into a few problems, clamming etc, tried what Leslie through Mr Carr had taught me, it worked. Started the dog In in the Derby got a a few Derby Points and Qual JAM at about 12 or 13 months old. Sold her to Win Purtell she first went to Andy Attar, then to Mike Lardy. Fc/AFC Morgan Le Fae of Buckshot went on to accumulate about 170 all-age points until the end of her career. There were others but thanks to Mike Lardy, Wayne Curtis, Andy Attar, Pat Burns, Leslie Karnes and Mr Carr , who I never met, I now understand the program. Sometimes it takes years, but, Rex Carr is alive and well circa 2013!
 
#42 ·
I received notes from Jeff Finley owner trainer of Topbrass Cotton fame. Jeff had attended a seminar at Rex Carr . Many of the notes were very old and were from former students. Jeff tried to school me in the Program, but, made no sense to me at all. I successfully ruined a couple of promising young Goldens trying to follow the program. In fact I got good at ruining dogs trying to make sense of the Carr methods without having first hand knowledge of Mr. Carr being there to advise me. In 1987 about 11 years later I got a Lab puppy from a litter my brother had leased his bitch out, Lakenheath Kizzie Kay bred to FC/AFC Wilderness Harley to go. She was going to be my first real collar dog. I made contact with a just turned new Field Trial Pro Leslie Karnes. Leslie had the National Derby Champion FC/AFC Donneybrooks St Jude, plus owned a couple of double header winners and National Finalists. She was a student of Rex Carr along with a friend of hers at the time Ah! Judy something her name slips my mind at the moment but believe she had a dog called Cody with a lot of All age points, maybe Dr Ed can help out. Anyway Leslie came back from a winter trip with my girl and Leslie started to school me in the handling of her. Took her home and started to freeze on the casts AFTER GETTING NICKED. It is called clamming, but, didn't know the terminology . Brought her back up to Leslie's and she educated me on how to get out of the problem. She would always say Rex would do this or Rex would do that never giving it in her own name.

About 7 or 8 years later it started to all make sense to me. Mike Lardy came on the scene put intellectual names on them direct pressure, indirect pressure, basic, transition, advanced etc. It really started to make sense and read those notes again and again . Mike of course went on a winter trip with the late Jim Kappus before he turned pro. Jim was a Carr student of the program. Then the Curtis brothers worked for Kappus. Andy Attar and Pat Burns worked for Mike Lardy before going out on their own. I had put a young FC/AFC Mioaks Criquetpas through basics and then got help from Pat Burns for my advanced work.
Hmm! I said maybe Mr Carr was on to something. I had a nice new puppy that was ready for basics, ran into a few problems, clamming etc, tried what Leslie through Mr Carr had taught me, it worked. Started the dog In in the Derby got a a few Derby Points and Qual JAM at about 12 or 13 months old. Sold her to Win Purtell she first went to Andy Attar, then to Mike Lardy. Fc/AFC Morgan Le Fae of Buckshot went on to accumulate about 170 all-age points until the end of her career. There were others but thanks to Mike Lardy, Wayne Curtis, Andy Attar, Pat Burns, Leslie Karnes and Mr Carr , who I never met, I now understand the program. Sometimes it takes years, but, Rex Carr is alive and well circa 2013!
Mr. Dillow,

Thank you sincerely for posting this recount of your experience. I really enjoyed it!

Chris
 
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