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Lardy TRT Indirect Pressure Question

25K views 119 replies 27 participants last post by  WRL 
#1 ·
On the second disk of Lardy's TRT, Lardy introduces indirect pressure utilizing the here "nick" sit for lack of effort during simple cast drills. In his example the dog goes to the wrong pile and presents Lardy an opportunity for introducing and utilizing indirect pressure. I get that concept, but he also mentions indirect pressure can be used for shopping the bumpers, lollygagging over the pile etc. But he doesn't go in to how to apply it when those situations occur when the dog is on the pile.

Can anyone explain how to apply the indirect pressure when a dog is shopping the pile during simple casting drills.
 
#8 ·
Nick to here whistle-nick-whistle and its a low nick
At least thats how it was taught to me

This would be your correct sequence.
 
#3 · (Edited)
X2 for shopping pile. For standing over the pile, I would do it a little different. Fetch nick. Assuming you have been through simple casting, ecollar fetch, etc.
Did you prevent shopping the pile in simple casting to a pile with a rope?
 
#4 ·
Lardy does ecollar fetch after indirect pressure, so no I have not. Thinking I should move to that though. Simple casting has been going well, except I need to move into indirect pressure since he likes going to a pile of his choosing at times. I am more concerned with the shopping, standing over a pile, or grabbing two at once before retrieve. I think ecollar fetch will help with this but it is out of step from Lardy's program. I tried the rope thing, but it is constantly getting in the way so I am off lead right now.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Lardy does ecollar fetch then comes back to simple casting (w/o lead) and introduces to indirect pressure. Look at your flow chart again. Look under "E collar conditioning":
Obedience
De-bolt
Collar Fetch
Introduction to Indirect Pressure

Don't try to use indirect pressure without first doing ecollar conditioning. How would the dog know what to do, either sit or here from a nick? Any casting prior to ecollar condtioning should be done with a lead. I know working with a 20' lead is a pain but it is the way to go.
Maintaining good lead control is the essence of preventing shopping. See below:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...Casting-to-a-Pile&highlight=Rowdy+(by+Pirate)
 
#6 ·
Lardy does ecollar fetch then comes back to simple casting (w/o lead) and introduces to indirect pressure. Look at your flow chart again. Look under "E collar conditioning":
Obedience
De-bolt
Collar Fetch
Introduction to Indirect Pressure

Don't try to use indirect pressure without first doing ecollar conditioning. How would the dog know what to do, either sit or here from a nick? Any casting prior to ecollar condtioning should be done with a lead. I know working with a 20' lead is a pain but it is the way to go.
Maintaining good lead control is the essence of preventing shopping. See below:

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...Casting-to-a-Pile&highlight=Rowdy+(by+Pirate)
Wayne

My dog is collar conditioned. Lardy does collar conditioning at end of disk 1, then indirect pressure with ecollar doing simple casting at start of disk 2, then ecollar fetch in prep for pile work. I haven't watched the ecollar fetch segment which follows indirect pressure on the disk
 
#9 ·
Now that you mention it I have seen this abnomality (sp?) before. But, I would still get him casting correctly 80-90 percent of the time with the rope before using indirect pressure.
 
#11 ·
I think the flow chart in the booklet accompanying the TRT 2d ed. is incorrect. I cross referenced to the flow chart in Volume 1 of Lardy's Retriever Journal articles and the flow chart reflects what is shown in the dvds.

In the big scheme of things I don't know that it matters that much. There is probably only one or two days separating the two drills. With my last two dogs Hank and Rowdy (by Pirate), their casting was so good that I didn't get a chance to do indirect pressure at that point in their progress.
 
#13 ·
You need to collar fetch first ....if you try to use indirect pressure withOUT having done collar fetch ,likely the dog will spit out the bumper....before doing anything. He NEEDS to know that bumper is not why he is being nicked
 
#15 ·
Bridget, I have deviated from Lardy by doing collar fetch first also. But in Lardys indirect pressure technique he does the ecollar corrections before the dog has the bumper in his mouth. There are no corrections after the dog has the bumper.
 
#16 ·
I do collar cond before force fetch , then FF and right into collar fetch, so take my advice for what it is worth , which is nothing , when following step by step Lardy.
I am curious to know what happens when he nicks the dog on here for shopping....likely comes in without a bumper , then you ear pinch back to the pile?
 
#17 ·
Bridget

Lardy doesn't say, that was the question of my original post. Maybe the answer to that is on his cc series disk, or one of his articles. I don't have those. I have my dog collar conditioned, but have not applied indirect pressure or collar fetch him yet. I think I am going to do collar fetch first, that makes more sense to me. Wayne is right though, and a good observation by him. Lardy applies indirect before the dog even gets to the pile in TRT2. But mentions it can be used for shopping but doesn't say how......
 
#18 · (Edited)
In my example of nick here for shopping I wouldn't do that until after ecollar conditioning as I originally stated. In Lardy's indirect pressure on simple casting for shopping he would probably, say sit, then nick, then say fetch, then say here.

In later sequences after ecollar fetch he does say here nick for shopping. You can see this when he does swimby. He discusses corrections for shopping, I believe, when he does TT. Which is here, nick.
 
#19 ·
To clarify for my purposes and maybe others would putting pressure on the dog for shopping, a nick, be direct pressure? Therefore Lardy wouldn't be discussing it in the indirect pressure segment. As I understand it indirect pressure as per his definition or how he explains it is pressure not for the command given ex: give right over cast and dog goes to left over, you blow the sit whistle and give a nick. You are not exactly nicking for the cast refusal in the dogs mind you nicked after the whistle. Nicking a dog for shopping, for the fetch command would be a direct form of pressure in my mind, and you would have had to CC to fetch before doing this. Thats how I take it anyways.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Daren, you and I were typing at the same time. See my post above. Lardy does say take care of the shopping issue with a rope in simple casting. If this is done right then shopping the pile won't be an issue. The number of times that Rowdy or Hank have shopped the pile can be counted on two fingers. It's best to get this issue resolved with rope control.
 
#23 ·
Wayne

Thanks for that post, what cd does he say that on? in his segment on disk 2 of TRT v2 for indirect pressure he only says indirect can be used for shopping too but doen't explain how, and I didn't hear anything about a rope. Was that on disk 1 in formal obiedence. I skipped that as my dog was already formal OB when I bought the Lardy series.
 
#21 ·
I believe that for shopping , IF you are nicking on "here" when you want a dog to pick up a bumper and come in, it would be indirect pressure. If You are nicking for "fetch" it would be direct pressure. Now if the dog started to come in without the bumper and you " back Nick backed", that would be direct pressure
 
#26 ·
I wouldn't be nicking on anything until I had done CC'ing...If I nick on a here I would expect my dog to come to me ...not turn and pick up a bumper...then I would ear pinch the dog to the pile ..In my program we do fetch to a pile after we come off the table or finish ff to a single bumper and stick fetch...This is where it is cleaned up with a rope, a long time before we ever get to simple casting...Does any one on the forum use the Danny Farmer program ? I'm talking from start to finish...Has any one been to his seminars...? Steve S
 
#22 ·
I did some more reading. In Lardy's RJ article on indirect pressure. He says "If your dog stands over the pile, you could try 'sit'-nick-'fetch'.

I thought it was interesting that he said you could "try".
 
#25 · (Edited)
Disc 1, Part 7, Simple Casting. Starts talking about shopping right at the end of three bumpers and right before putting out piles. While he is doing simple casting with a rope he make several statements about getting this right because if you don't it will haunt you all the rest of the time you are doing drills or something like that. At first he call is messing around with the bumpers and then later defines it as shopping. Then in the closing he states something about going directly to one bumper as being the end product of this drill.
 
#27 ·
I agree with that, def NO nicking until cc is done. I was just explaining where it would be direct pressure and where indirect pressure.
 
#28 ·
I gotcha ..I wasn't assuming you did it that way ..I was just commenting about what you wrote...There had been some discussion on when the CC'ing is done in Lardy's program in relation to the use of so called indirect pressure on the simple casting drill...It seems there is a discrepancy between written material and cd's... Steve S
 
#29 ·
Steve, You might have hit on a subject for a poll. Which program do people follow? List some of the major ones: Lardy, Graham, Rick S., Farmer and even have an other category. I don't know how to do this. Do you?
 
#30 ·
NO....I'm computer illiterate....Can type pretty good though ...I have never heard his program mentioned..Not as advertised as the others..If you haven't been to one of his seminars they probably have never known it excised...I'll tell you a little story from the first seminar of his I went to...He was telling the importance of following the program ...He said " If Judy had told him to jack up the right front tire and take it off and lay it on the ground beside the truck then go train, that is what I would have done....Put the tire back on before going home.." Pretty strong words on following the program ....Steve S
 
#37 ·
Under what circumstance would you not just use direct pressure for shopping or standing over the bird/slow pickup ?

john
When you apply direct pressure, you are also indirectly punishing something else.

If the dog was doing EVERYTHING right except for a slow pick-up, I would give the command fetch, and repeat it, with a nick at the same instant. That way, the indirect pressure correction is most likely to be applied to the dog not fetching.

However, if the dog is shopping bumpers, it's not merely a case of "not fetching". It's also a case of not returning quickly.
So, I can potentially fix both problems in the same instant, by commanding HERE, and nicking at the same time.

If the dog understands the here-nick, it will return with a bumper, and is not likely to shop the next time.

The direct pressure, reinforced the quick return.
The indirect pressure punished the shopping.

That's what I want the dog to understand it as.
They don't always understand indirect pressure how I wanted them to understand it.

In that case, the worst thing I can do, is to repeat the same sequence and expect the dog to miraculously understand it the next time.
I need to change something.

Maybe, a sit-nick-fetch will be better understood.
Maybe, a HERE, with no nick and when the dog gets back to me without a bumper, an ear pinch to the pile will fix the problem.

The dog tells you what it understood it as.
 
#32 ·
....Can anyone explain how to apply the indirect pressure when a dog is shopping the pile during simple casting drills.
Indirect pressure can be used to correct anything that the dog deliberately does, immediately before the indirect pressure was applied.

As long as the dog understands the applied pressure as reinforcement of a known command, it will work as indirect pressure for what the dog did wrong.

The primary reason for returning to simple casting, for indirect pressure introduction following collar conditioning, is to proof your collar conditioning. It gives the dog more to think about, and "aggravates" it's tendency to "screw up".

If it doesn't respond correctly to the e-collar pressure, then you know that you haven't been thorough enough with your CC.

Obviously, you can't apply the collar to correct for shopping, before you have completed collar fetch.
But, you CAN ear pinch the dog, if it refuses to fetch following a sit-nick, or a here-nick.

When the dog shows you that it does not understand the pressure you applied to enforce something, you should immediately fall back on what the dog already knows.

Don't keep repeating the same thing.

If the dog responds to a fetch-swat, by refusing to fetch, you don't come right back with another fetch-swat. You pinch the ear.
If the dog responds to a sit-nick, by refusing to sit, you don't come right back with another sit-nick. You jerk the choke chain, and/or swat the rump.

Don't keep applying the same form of pressure, when the dog shows you that it doesn't understand it.
Change it, so that the dog understands it.
 
#33 ·
Indirect pressure can be used to correct anything that the dog deliberately does, immediately before the indirect pressure was applied.

As long as the dog understands the applied pressure as reinforcement of a known command, it will work as indirect pressure for what the dog did wrong.

The primary reason for returning to simple casting, for indirect pressure introduction following collar conditioning, is to proof your collar conditioning. It gives the dog more to think about, and "aggravates" it's tendency to "screw up".

If it doesn't respond correctly to the e-collar pressure, then you know that you haven't been thorough enough with your CC.

Obviously, you can't apply the collar to correct for shopping, before you have completed collar fetch.
But, you CAN ear pinch the dog, if it refuses to fetch following a sit-nick, or a here-nick.

When the dog shows you that it does not understand the pressure you applied to enforce something, you should immediately fall back on what the dog already knows.

Don't keep repeating the same thing.

If the dog responds to a fetch-swat, by refusing to fetch, you don't come right back with another fetch-swat. You pinch the ear.
If the dog responds to a sit-nick, by refusing to sit, you don't come right back with another sit-nick. You jerk the choke chain, and/or swat the rump.

Don't keep applying the same form of pressure, when the dog shows you that it doesn't understand it.
Change it, so that the dog understands it.




The first part is what I don't understand ...I must be slow on the up take ..There was no indirect pressure applied ..Only direct pressure on a known command...That direct pressure may effect something in an indirect way though ..I believe it effect what follows not what preceded.....God said " my ways are not your ways and my thoughts or not your thoughts" I guess some things are just meant not to be understood....

I understand this portion ...the 2nd part highlighted ....Steve S
 
#39 ·
Woofer, What is the name of the video you are refering to?
 
#42 · (Edited)
If the dog was doing EVERYTHING right except for a slow pick-up, I would give the command fetch, and repeat it, with a nick at the same instant. That way, the indirect pressure correction is most likely to be applied to the dog not fetching.
Wouldn't the Fetch Fetch nick Fetch be direct pressure

However, if the dog is shopping bumpers, it's not merely a case of "not fetching". It's also a case of not returning quickly.
That's a little too convoluted for me. The dog is not fetching (picking up the bird/ bumper/whatever) apply direct pressure with fetch and the collar, once the dog has made the retrieve, if it does not return at a brisk pace then direct presure to here and the collar

So, I can potentially fix both problems in the same instant, by commanding HERE, and nicking at the same timeIf the dog understands the here-nick, it will return with a bumper, and is not likely to shop the next time.
What do you do if upon receiving the simultaneous here nick the dog starts in ,without the bird a distinct possibility

The direct pressure, reinforced the quick return.
The indirect pressure punished the shopping.
Could be, but I am not as sure as you are.

That's what I want the dog to understand it as.
They don't always understand indirect pressure how I wanted them to understand it.

In that case, the worst thing I can do, is to repeat the same sequence and expect the dog to miraculously understand it the next time.
I need to change something.

Maybe, a sit-nick-fetch will be better understood.
Maybe, a HERE, with no nick and when the dog gets back to me without a bumper, an ear pinch to the pile will fix the problem.

The dog tells you what it understood it as.
I try to shy away from corrections where I am unsure of the probable outcome, so I use a limited amount of indirect pressure when a direct presure correction will apply a pinpoint correction for the infraction..[/QUOTE]

john
 
#43 · (Edited)
Wouldn't the Fetch Fetch nick Fetch be direct pressure?
Yes. But there is ALWAYS indirect pressure associated with direct pressure. You cannot eliminate it.

By repeating the command, and then​ applying pressure in conjunction with the repeated command, the indirect pressure is attributed to the dog not complying fast enough.
It wasn't trying, and it knows that it wasn't trying.

That's a little too convoluted for me. The dog is not fetching (picking up the bird/ bumper/whatever) once the dog has made the retrieve, if it does not return at a brisk pace then direct pressure to here....
If the dog is shopping, it hasn't made the retrieve.


What do you do if upon receiving the simultaneous here nick the dog starts in ,without the bird a distinct possibility.....
What bird? I was talking about shopping a pile.


Could be, but I am not as sure as you are.....
It doesn't matter what you are sure of. What matters, is what the dog is sure of.


I try to shy away from corrections where I am unsure of the probable outcome, so I use a limited amount of indirect pressure when a direct pressure correction will apply a pinpoint correction for the infraction..
Direct pressure only applies to specific commands that the dog has been conditioned to perform in response to applied pressure.

For the most part, those are limited to GO/FETCH, STOP, and COME.

If you have more, great.
 
#44 · (Edited)
Direct pressure only applies to specific commands that the dog has been conditioned to perform in response to applied pressure.

For the most part, those are limited to GO/FETCH, STOP, and COME.

If you have more, great.
me said:
Under what circumstance would you not just use direct pressure for shopping or standing over the bird/slow pickup ?

So as not to complicate things by going off in a lot of different tangents I will simply rephrase the question above.....

When it comes to infractions pertaining to things having to do with GO/FETCH, STOP, and COME. Why not just stick with direct pressure ?

john
 
#45 ·
So as not to complicate things br going off in a lot of different tangents I will rephrase the question above.....

When it comes to infractions pertaining to things having to do with GO/FETCH, STOP, and COME. Why not just stick with direct pressure ?

john
ALL of those, should have been cleaned up in the yard.

That's what it means, when we talk about basics.
If you are still fighting that stuff in advanced work, you've dropped a pretty big ball.
 
#57 ·
Awful lot of internet dogs have been trained with direct and indirect pressure methods. Unfortunately I don't train internet dogs, I'm stuck training those silly old hounds on my trailer, mostly in the rain. These theories make great internet debate but unfortunately I have to train the dog currently out in front of me and lord knows they don't respond nearly as well as internet dogs. When to use direct pressure and indirect pressure, clearly its the same always for internet dogs.

/Paul
 
#59 ·
I am with Dennis, I agree with alot of what Copter doc says but it sounds to much a regimented thought process. I am also curious , are you a pro? do you hunt test? have you trained 1 dog or 100? Hunt?
I really like it when I take advice from people that have shown me credibility....
 
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