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Thread: Lardy TRT Indirect Pressure Question

  1. #31
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    Under what circumstance would you not just use direct pressure for shopping or standing over the bird/slow pickup ?

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 02-04-2013 at 07:11 PM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  2. #32
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freezeland View Post
    ....Can anyone explain how to apply the indirect pressure when a dog is shopping the pile during simple casting drills.
    Indirect pressure can be used to correct anything that the dog deliberately does, immediately before the indirect pressure was applied.

    As long as the dog understands the applied pressure as reinforcement of a known command, it will work as indirect pressure for what the dog did wrong.

    The primary reason for returning to simple casting, for indirect pressure introduction following collar conditioning, is to proof your collar conditioning. It gives the dog more to think about, and "aggravates" it's tendency to "screw up".

    If it doesn't respond correctly to the e-collar pressure, then you know that you haven't been thorough enough with your CC.

    Obviously, you can't apply the collar to correct for shopping, before you have completed collar fetch.
    But, you CAN ear pinch the dog, if it refuses to fetch following a sit-nick, or a here-nick.

    When the dog shows you that it does not understand the pressure you applied to enforce something, you should immediately fall back on what the dog already knows.

    Don't keep repeating the same thing.

    If the dog responds to a fetch-swat, by refusing to fetch, you don't come right back with another fetch-swat. You pinch the ear.
    If the dog responds to a sit-nick, by refusing to sit, you don't come right back with another sit-nick. You jerk the choke chain, and/or swat the rump.

    Don't keep applying the same form of pressure, when the dog shows you that it doesn't understand it.
    Change it, so that the dog understands it.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Indirect pressure can be used to correct anything that the dog deliberately does, immediately before the indirect pressure was applied.

    As long as the dog understands the applied pressure as reinforcement of a known command, it will work as indirect pressure for what the dog did wrong.

    The primary reason for returning to simple casting, for indirect pressure introduction following collar conditioning, is to proof your collar conditioning. It gives the dog more to think about, and "aggravates" it's tendency to "screw up".

    If it doesn't respond correctly to the e-collar pressure, then you know that you haven't been thorough enough with your CC.

    Obviously, you can't apply the collar to correct for shopping, before you have completed collar fetch.
    But, you CAN ear pinch the dog, if it refuses to fetch following a sit-nick, or a here-nick.

    When the dog shows you that it does not understand the pressure you applied to enforce something, you should immediately fall back on what the dog already knows.

    Don't keep repeating the same thing.

    If the dog responds to a fetch-swat, by refusing to fetch, you don't come right back with another fetch-swat. You pinch the ear.
    If the dog responds to a sit-nick, by refusing to sit, you don't come right back with another sit-nick. You jerk the choke chain, and/or swat the rump.

    Don't keep applying the same form of pressure, when the dog shows you that it doesn't understand it.
    Change it, so that the dog understands it.




    The first part is what I don't understand ...I must be slow on the up take ..There was no indirect pressure applied ..Only direct pressure on a known command...That direct pressure may effect something in an indirect way though ..I believe it effect what follows not what preceded.....God said " my ways are not your ways and my thoughts or not your thoughts" I guess some things are just meant not to be understood....

    I understand this portion ...the 2nd part highlighted ....Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    ..There was no indirect pressure applied ..Only direct pressure on a known command...
    Any time you apply direct pressure to enforce a command, there is indirect pressure applied to something else.

    Whatever the dog was doing at the time.
    Shopping the pile, chasing a rabbit, peeing on a training partner, etc.

    The dog associates what it was doing, with the discomfort of the applied pressure.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Any time you apply direct pressure to enforce a command, there is indirect pressure applied to something else.

    Whatever the dog was doing at the time.
    Shopping the pile, chasing a rabbit, peeing on a training partner, etc.

    The dog associates what it was doing, with the discomfort of the applied pressure.




    Not the command given just before the stimulation ..? Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    ....Not the command given just before the stimulation ..? Steve S
    Not if the dog has been conditioned to perform that command in response to the pressure.

    If it hasn't, and the dog was trying to obey the command, then yes. The applied pressure would be associated with obeying the command. And effectively punish the behavior that the dog was doing right.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Under what circumstance would you not just use direct pressure for shopping or standing over the bird/slow pickup ?

    john
    When you apply direct pressure, you are also indirectly punishing something else.

    If the dog was doing EVERYTHING right except for a slow pick-up, I would give the command fetch, and repeat it, with a nick at the same instant. That way, the indirect pressure correction is most likely to be applied to the dog not fetching.

    However, if the dog is shopping bumpers, it's not merely a case of "not fetching". It's also a case of not returning quickly.
    So, I can potentially fix both problems in the same instant, by commanding HERE, and nicking at the same time.

    If the dog understands the here-nick, it will return with a bumper, and is not likely to shop the next time.

    The direct pressure, reinforced the quick return.
    The indirect pressure punished the shopping.

    That's what I want the dog to understand it as.
    They don't always understand indirect pressure how I wanted them to understand it.

    In that case, the worst thing I can do, is to repeat the same sequence and expect the dog to miraculously understand it the next time.
    I need to change something.

    Maybe, a sit-nick-fetch will be better understood.
    Maybe, a HERE, with no nick and when the dog gets back to me without a bumper, an ear pinch to the pile will fix the problem.

    The dog tells you what it understood it as.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    I wouldn't be nicking on anything until I had done CC'ing...If I nick on a here I would expect my dog to come to me ...not turn and pick up a bumper...then I would ear pinch the dog to the pile ..In my program we do fetch to a pile after we come off the table or finish ff to a single bumper and stick fetch...This is where it is cleaned up with a rope, a long time before we ever get to simple casting...Does any one on the forum use the Danny Farmer program ? I'm talking from start to finish...Has any one been to his seminars...? Steve S
    RE: Danny Farmer videos...I'm new here and don't want to step on any toes...but you asked so yes...I have the Farmer/Aycock video and think his/her methods are harsh to the point of being abusive. The proof of the pudding is how their dogs practically crawl on their bellies up to the line on heel commands.

    I know they've won TONS of competitions...but if that is what it takes (and it isn't) then I would want no part of it.

    Just my personal opinion.

    (-:

  9. #39
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    Woofer, What is the name of the video you are refering to?
    Wayne Nutt
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    Woofer, What is the name of the video you are refering to?
    Yeah.

    I need to order one too!

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