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Thread: Not a word ...

  1. #131
    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    The whole thing is starting to unravel. We have learned that Petraeus reported a terrorist attack on Sept 13 and changed it on Sept 14 to a spontaneous demonstration over a video. Lie? You bet. If Petraeus can lie to get in step with the POTUS, if the Secretary of State can lie... if the Ambassador to the UN can lie... so can the JCOS.

    Remember... this is the POTUS who promised great transparency. Well, slow but sure, it is becoming transparent on what happened, who knew what, and when.

    Will somebody please find out what Obama was doing that eventful night? Besides packing his bags for his campaign trip to Las Vegas.

  2. #132
    Senior Member helencalif's Avatar
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    20 hours to get a military plane and personnel from Italy to Bengazi? These forces are there to be ready to leave quickly. Grab a map and see how far it is from Italy to Bengazi.

  3. #133
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    Gerry-

    There are some reasons why journalists are not great tactical thinkers. Too often they think that just by saying something, it will be true.

    1. There are no KC-135's at Ramstein. The KC-135 wing is located at RAF Mildenhall. That's a long drag. They would recover at other bases but they'd have about a 6 hour flight just to get in position to tank. Therein lies the problem. If the tankers started immediately when the attack started, it would be about 6 hours before they'd be there. That means the F-16's couldn't get there must sooner. Of course, at least they'd have been there.

    2. I really doubt that the USAF would put F-16's into Tripoli just from the logistics standpoint, No tires, no oxygen bottles, questionable fuel, no drag chutes, no security, etc. It's tough putting this kind of bird on the ground at a strange field in the US. When you put "white on the rails" (armed) aircraft into a marginally secure field with no logistics, you are asking for trouble. Heck, there's a really, really dangerous substance in the F-16 and it would almost make the F-16 a terrorist target. Each F-16 carries about 5 gallons of hydrazine which is both highly toxic and highly explosive. We had a General in an F-16 cockpit (on the ground) once who pushed the wrong button and dumped the hydrazine. It took 6 hours to get him out of the cockpit.

    3. Actually there's a germ of an idea there. Launch from Aviano and recover into Crete (Greece has F-16's of the same "model" as the US)

    Actually, the whole episode shows a significant weakness is US defense policy/actions vis a vis the terrorists. We need 2-3 days from a standing start to position the forces and logistics to support them. Terrorists need only a successful airline schedule. It's kind of a case of Gulliver and the Lilliputians. Once we have a day or two, we can beat the snot out of anybody but until then...
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
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    Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge

  4. #134
    Senior Member Raymond Little's Avatar
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    2 pages and no Socialist contributions... Priceless!
    "Character is doing the right thing when nobody is watching"....J.C. Watts

  5. #135
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    All the excuses for not helping the folks in Benghazi are just so much BS... Since when did Americans think it OK to just sit and watch our folks get gunned down by a bunch of two bit savages and not do a damn thing to help them? Talk about UNAMERICAN!! It's SHAMEFUL. Anyone with a conscience would be hanging their heads in shame. Obama is a failure as a President, Hillary was a joke as Sec of State.
    Last edited by huntinman; 05-10-2013 at 11:23 PM.
    Bill Davis

  6. #136
    Senior Member Raymond Little's Avatar
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    Socialist have no shame.
    "Character is doing the right thing when nobody is watching"....J.C. Watts

  7. #137
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Eric, I always find that your posts have such good facts to offer.

    Since there was some hope in using Greece and Crete ... then from some brainstorming why wouldn't the military think of that ... you did And it was our allies in Europe who called upon the US to offer assistance in Libya, so it would be entirely appropriate for them to cooperate in this situation.

    I don't know what kind of aircraft Gibson's men were getting on, but they had some kind of aircraft. I don't recall if Hicks mentioned what it was.

    It would appear that they do have some kind of "fast response" teams ... that appears to be what Gibson was involved with ... but they were "not authorized to go."

    What we have overlooked is that Magariaf was the only Muslim country leader to outrightly condemn the Benghazi terrorists, but the administration made him look bad with their false narrative. Additional policy error.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  8. #138
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    Well...for one thing I'm not constrained by anything like budgets or habit or...

    Lt Col Gibson was going to put people on either a charter or a commercial airline (!). I don't believe they had dedicated air support. There is a Foreign Emergency Support Team (FEST). They are an ad hoc team composed of people from several departments tasked according to the emergency. They are supported by a Nat Guard unit in NJ at Mcguire AFB on military 757's. They should have been sent but Gibson's team was really a support team for Tripoli that was just going to go to Benghazi. My guess is that the FEST was held up by people who weren't used to dealing with crises and so they were afraid to pull the trigger out of fear of looking like pansies. That's the real fault. We had pros in the right places it would seem but they were constrained by amateurs.

    The military in Africa are in a strange circumstance. They are assigned to Africa (USAfriCom) but their HQ is in Stuttgart, GE. About 1,500 folks are there for planning and HQ purposes in parallel with EuCom (European Command). So anything in Libya required the USAfriCom folks in Stuttgart to go to the Eucom folks in Stuttgart to ask for help because AfriCom doesn't have the vast array of resources. USAfriCom just stood up in about 2005-06 under Rumsfeld. Until then, the Africa mission was split between Eucom and PACOM. Part of what I expect from this episode is that USAfriCom will become more robust and perhaps re-locate to someplace closer to the action. For instance, in the 1980's there was a base named Comiso AB on the island of Sicily. It has a runway and full complement of housing and logistics facilities. It was built for the US-NATO GLCM mission but closed when that mission was cancelled by treaty. Comiso could be opened/renovated and become the new HQ Africa Command. Look where it sits and what an advantage it would have over Stuttgart, GE.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy")
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Johnson View Post
    Gerry-

    There are some reasons why journalists are not great tactical thinkers. Too often they think that just by saying something, it will be true.

    1. There are no KC-135's at Ramstein. The KC-135 wing is located at RAF Mildenhall. That's a long drag. They would recover at other bases but they'd have about a 6 hour flight just to get in position to tank. Therein lies the problem. If the tankers started immediately when the attack started, it would be about 6 hours before they'd be there. That means the F-16's couldn't get there must sooner. Of course, at least they'd have been there.

    2. I really doubt that the USAF would put F-16's into Tripoli just from the logistics standpoint, No tires, no oxygen bottles, questionable fuel, no drag chutes, no security, etc. It's tough putting this kind of bird on the ground at a strange field in the US. When you put "white on the rails" (armed) aircraft into a marginally secure field with no logistics, you are asking for trouble. Heck, there's a really, really dangerous substance in the F-16 and it would almost make the F-16 a terrorist target. Each F-16 carries about 5 gallons of hydrazine which is both highly toxic and highly explosive. We had a General in an F-16 cockpit (on the ground) once who pushed the wrong button and dumped the hydrazine. It took 6 hours to get him out of the cockpit.

    3. Actually there's a germ of an idea there. Launch from Aviano and recover into Crete (Greece has F-16's of the same "model" as the US)

    Actually, the whole episode shows a significant weakness is US defense policy/actions vis a vis the terrorists. We need 2-3 days from a standing start to position the forces and logistics to support them. Terrorists need only a successful airline schedule. It's kind of a case of Gulliver and the Lilliputians. Once we have a day or two, we can beat the snot out of anybody but until then...
    The Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) was in the Mediterranean. It has Harrier jump jets and the a floating platform to take off from. The State Dept. never gave it a second thought. We always have a MEU in the Mediterranean.

  10. #140
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    It occurs to me that ABC confirmed that the edits of the public statements turned out quite a different story than the one that was being fed to the public for the past nine months. Would we know this even now if the three fellas who came forward had not done so?

    Is it a big stretch to believe that other information that was given to the public was also "modified"? If the MEU (which seems logical) were an alternative, how many people in the general population would be aware of that? Or of the use of Greece and Crete? I would not be one of those people. I would only be astounded to know that it would take a full day for the military to respond to a skirmish like the one at Benghazi ... which actually wasn't true, since Gibson could have given some relief had he been allowed to go; perhaps enough time to save the lives of the two former SEALs..

    As people chastise the Rs for being "political", these witnesses are three people who were ostensibly supporters of the present administration. (as was Stevens) Nordstrom, even in his first testimony, was more forthright than others who testified. My understanding is that these individuals "volunteered" their testimony. Is it perceived that they did so for political reasons? Or did they volunteer because they believed that our leaders should be held accountable for their actions, not for political reasons ... but in spite of their political leanings? That would take a great deal of character, IMHO. This would not have been easy for them to do.

    It appears that maybe they could no longer remain silent after hearing Hillary's testimony? Was that what put them "over the top"? (as evidenced by Hicks' opening statement)

    I was also impressed by the resourcefulness of these people. They knew who to call to get action ... to prepare the hospitals for the wounded; to get through to the highest levels in the Libyan govt. To have the support of the Libyan govt to prevent them from falling into an ambush, they must have had some respect of those Libyan officials. In that regard, it is probably a loss to our country that the careers of these people (in foreign service) are very likely over.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
    "Know in your heart that all things are possible. We couldn't conceive of a miracle if none ever happened." -Libby Fudim

    ​I don't use the PM feature, so just email me direct at the address shown above.

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