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Thread: Split Casting Drill and Verbal Backs

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    Senior Member Rnd's Avatar
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    Default Split Casting Drill and Verbal Backs

    To start with I'll say I'm in over my head with this topic. Thus the questions, and hopefully discussion.

    Awhile back "Evan" had a thread on the "T" and double "TT". A good discussion ensued... I do NOT want to rehash the T and TT.

    The Lardy Apostles follow his (Mike's) program to the "T" (sorry for the pun. No other way to say it) Gooser posted a link to Danny Farmers way of moving from the yard to blinds.

    That way is different than Lardys.. Dennis eluded to it briefly in this thread. post #14 http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ht=split+drill

    Without getting too long winded in the opening questions/statements........

    What I understand about this drill/method is the dog never sees a T or TT but rather uses the "S" or Split drill (or Simple drill) to learn handling. Then moves to a 5 legged lining pattern (a-la DL)

    From what I understand, it has a back, left angle, and right angle back to the pattern... However there is NO right or left backs. Just verbal backs and it doesn't matter what side the dog turns to. Just that it changes it's line.

    You coax the dog to take an angle back by walking or moving in the direction you want the dog to move and giving a verbal...

    When I left the game in the 1990's some were experimenting with this concept..


    Does anybody know what I'm talking about or am I just crazy???? ( I'm crazy but still???)

    randy
    May you pin all the marks and line the blinds!!

    Avatar courtesy of RTF"s TZAPPIA

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rnd View Post
    What I understand about this drill/method is the dog never sees a T or TT but rather uses the "S" or Split drill (or Simple drill) to learn handling. Then moves to a 5 legged lining pattern (a-la DL)

    From what I understand, it has a back, left angle, and right angle back to the pattern... However there is NO right or left backs. Just verbal backs and it doesn't matter what side the dog turns to. Just that it changes it's line.

    You coax the dog to take an angle back by walking or moving in the direction you want the dog to move and giving a verbal...

    When I left the game in the 1990's some were experimenting with this concept..


    Does anybody know what I'm talking about or am I just crazy???? ( I'm crazy but still???)

    randy
    Whether or not any of that is true is up to the trainer as they choose to apply it. You certainly can have right and left straight backs, with or without voice. You can have straight over's. It's just a 5-leg pattern, and you can choose to cast off the split legs, or cast off the primary (right left middle) legs. Here's one look at it. But you can do what you want with it.



    It's just one way to go about it. But there are good reasons why this is dated training.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


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    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rnd View Post
    To start with I'll say I'm in over my head with this topic. Thus the questions, and hopefully discussion.

    Awhile back "Evan" had a thread on the "T" and double "TT". A good discussion ensued... I do NOT want to rehash the T and TT.

    The Lardy Apostles follow his (Mike's) program to the "T" (sorry for the pun. No other way to say it) Gooser posted a link to Danny Farmers way of moving from the yard to blinds.

    That way is different than Lardys.. Dennis eluded to it briefly in this thread. post #14 http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...ht=split+drill

    Without getting too long winded in the opening questions/statements........

    What I understand about this drill/method is the dog never sees a T or TT but rather uses the "S" or Split drill (or Simple drill) to learn handling. Then moves to a 5 legged lining pattern (a-la DL)

    From what I understand, it has a back, left angle, and right angle back to the pattern... However there is NO right or left backs. Just verbal backs and it doesn't matter what side the dog turns to. Just that it changes it's line.

    You coax the dog to take an angle back by walking or moving in the direction you want the dog to move and giving a verbal...

    When I left the game in the 1990's some were experimenting with this concept..


    Does anybody know what I'm talking about or am I just crazy???? ( I'm crazy but still???)

    randy


    Randy

    First, there are at least 3 totally different drills called the Split Drill or Split Casting drill. The original thread you reference discusses that. My Split casting drill is used to teach change of direction to a dog that digs back or scallops when given a almost straight back literal cast.

    Second, the 5 leg pattern like Evan diagrammed can be used in addition to the Double-T and often is. Evan lables it out-dated but Bill Hillmann in his brand new Fundamentals on Land DVD, describes his Star drill which is very similar.

    Third, how you cast, hands no-hands, vocal, silent is very variable. And yes I have been beat by some weird casters! However, I believe in providing as much information to the dog as possible. I believe in using silent versus vocal casting in different situations. I believe in a micro- step versus a larger step distinction at times. I believe in an almost straight up back versus an slight angle versus more angle at times. I believe in using these different casts consistently in various situations. They are fundamentally literal casting once the dog is well into Transition. The no-hands "back" has" some uncommon and specific applications but I do not like it as a default method of casting. I have seen it used as a crutch becasue the dog over-casts. I don't just want my dog to turn and go back, I want him to turn and go back to where i want him to go!!!! I try to communicate that with a variety of consistent casts.
    Dennis

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    Randy

    Second, the 5 leg pattern like Evan diagrammed can be used in addition to the Double-T and often is. Evan lables it out-dated but Bill Hillmann in his brand new Fundamentals on Land DVD, describes his Star drill which is very similar.
    Not "out-dated"; "dated" as the OP made reference to it. He stated that his understanding was ..."the dog never sees a T or TT but rather uses the "S" or Split drill (or Simple drill) to learn handling. Then moves to a 5 legged lining pattern (a-la DL)". In the years I spent with DL that's how we taught basic handling. The dog learned a pattern (inside out, over and over), and then began to cast on it per my diagram. I make no reference to Bill's Star drill or any of yours. I'm sure they're fine.

    The 5-leg pattern can surely be used for casting in this day and age. I did it for years. But compared with what we now know, I think it's a dated approach, especially if it's used as a replacement for T work. Was that your understanding, Randy?

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


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    OUTDATED!!!!! I'm pretty sure every basics trainer that comes out of Blackwater is very familiar with the drill, so I guess Bill Eckett's trips to the National with dogs that were brought up this way is outdated. Heck it was 3 months ago..

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Whether or not any of that is true is up to the trainer as they choose to apply it. You certainly can have right and left straight backs, with or without voice. You can have straight over's. It's just a 5-leg pattern, and you can choose to cast off the split legs, or cast off the primary (right left middle) legs. Here's one look at it. But you can do what you want with it.



    It's just one way to go about it. But there are good reasons why this is dated training.

    Evan

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    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Have a valium, and read closer. I did not say "out-dated". See post above. Good grief!

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...59&ref=profile

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    Good Grief is right. You consistently get on here and condemn training approaches that do not follow your flow chart. Almost everything with dog training is dated. The TT has been around for at least 25 years, that I know of. Everthing in basics is about teaching a few fundamental comands... that is it. As long as you are thorough with the means you use and understand what the end is. It does not really matter what approach you use. You do not win field trials by being able to do every drill in the book perfectly. It is about the end product.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Have a valium, and read closer. I did not say "out-dated". See post above. Good grief!

    Evan

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    Terminology, the bugaboo of training, so many variances. I use the splitcasting drill as Dennis explains, for whatever that's worth. I also took "dated" to mean the same as "out-dated" and was a little surprised, since lots of people I know use a split cast drill effectively.
    "dated
    Marked with or displaying a date. Old-fashioned; out-of-date.
    outdated
    Out-of-date; old-fashioned.

    outdate
    To replace or make obsolete or old-fashioned"
    Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs

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    Senior Member Rnd's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input guys. I'll try to explain this "S" drill as I understand it. Since I've not seen a dog run it only phone conversations about it. I also know that the dogs never see a TT drill ever.

    The piles would be at 12 o'clock 10, and 2. Nothing at 3 or 9 the focus is always to get the dog going back. No overs involved. No pressure either, or at least very little.

    The 5 legged pattern I've seen. It's not the big wide open pattern as Evan describes but much tighter. The dog would run past each pile to get to the next.

    For those of you (and there are a few accomplished) trainers that do not use the T and TT for handling what do you do??

    Dennis if you would explain this I think it maybe what I'm thinking of.

    Finally there is a Split "casting" drill which my friend John Cavanaugh introduced.
    Last edited by Rnd; 02-08-2013 at 10:47 AM.
    May you pin all the marks and line the blinds!!

    Avatar courtesy of RTF"s TZAPPIA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Have a valium, and read closer. I did not say "out-dated". See post above. Good grief!

    Evan
    You frequently like to use the dictionary, for unknown reasons, in your posts. So I would suggest that you look up "dated" in your trusty dog trainers dictionary. My regular old dictionary uses terms such as "outmoded" & "old fashioned"
    So tell us all old learned dog guru; what does the official Dog Trainers Dictionary list for "dated"

    Whats that old quote you frequently cite from your old training buddy Rex Carr? Something to the affect of........"It is unfair to ask your dog to be more precise than you are" Good grief!!

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