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Thread: Split Casting Drill and Verbal Backs

  1. #21
    Senior Member jd6400's Avatar
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    Sabirely pretty much nailed it Evan,except Northernstorm uses a mini S first with the piles @ 30 and 40 yds (no flags) then moves back to 100 but still no flags.In the gundog world I need OVERS.The general theory of course in trials is if you need a over your dog hasn`t kept a good initial line.From what I`ve watched him do it the angles are just a tweak to go straight back. Jim

  2. #22
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    I'd sure love to see a diagram or two. Some video would be even more helpful. But I appreciate the explanation so far.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


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  3. #23
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I'd sure love to see a diagram or two. Some video would be even more helpful. But I appreciate the explanation so far.

    Evan
    Evan

    I fear that people are talking about very different things here. The original questions by Randy were two-fold. One related to a drill that was termed a split drill but it usually only had 3 legs (sorta like the middle 3 in your diagram). The first real question was whether this substituted for doing the T or TT. This question was confounded by reference to other split drills, notably one was the Y-drill(a marking drill!) and the other was the split casting drill (my name). The latter was shown me by John Cavanuagh and I have written about it's use and modifications of it in Retrievers ONLINE seevral times. This is the one that Sabirely references. You can watch it on my Training Retrirvers Alone DVD but I do not have a youtube version.It has very little to do with Randy's question but rather it addresses dig-back problems on casting.

    The second relevant part of Randy's question was that the Split drill that he was referencing is primarily done with "no-hands" backs. His question was how many use that! I answered that earlier from my point of view.

    In hopes of not complicating this furthe,r another topic has emerged and that is how do peole transition to cold blinds after or without double T.. There was reference to Lardy who primarily follows T with 3-leg patterns, "blind drills", a few yard type lining drills and then cold blinds. Three-handed casting was taught even before Pile work. Then there is the Danny Farmer/Judy Aycock, more Rex type approach of moving almost directly into cold blinds after T.

    Hillmann in his new DVD does a much shorter and simple single T, followed by some casting drills, a star drill which is somewhat like your diagram and then he does walk-out blinds before cold blinds.

    I follow Lardy except when I start cold blinds, I do a mixture of cold blinds, multiple (2-3) walk-around blinds(these are like Hillmann's walk-outs) and I do a series of repeat blinds(but not pattern blinds) after several days/weeks since I ran them cold. I find this set of 3 procedures makes a smoother transition to just cold blinds, lining and casting is practiced and attitude is very high. I'll let you describe Smartworks variants from all the other variants.

    It was seems to me that apples, oranges, blueberries and strawberries are being talked about in this thread as if they were all the same thing, so sorry if I didn't make a good fruit smoothie out of it!

    Cheers
    Dennis

  4. #24
    Senior Member Rnd's Avatar
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    Dennis,

    I think you made a perfect "fruit smoothie" out of my confused questions.

    I started the thread with this:
    To start with I'll say I'm in over my head with this topic. Thus the questions, and hopefully discussion.
    I had very little understanding of this drill (drills).

    After a few very detailed responses and a couple of PM's I have a much better grasp of the subject.

    All was not lost by bouncing around. (IMHO) I think others that may not have of posted on this thread also received some good information.

    Thank you, and the others that contributed.

    Randy
    May you pin all the marks and line the blinds!!

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  5. #25
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    As I have indicated in previous posts the terminology gets very complicated. I will choose strawberries as an example. The split drill I have used the past 25 years , as it was called, and taught to me is as follows. Three blinds 15 yards apart at about 60 yards or so, then two blinds at about 200 to 250 yards , 30 yards apart. Run the three short blinds, then run the longer blinds through the split or slot on the outside of the 60 yards blinds, kinda like the two long blind are a punch through the split or slot, preferably as a pattern , on a flat close cropped field. It's all about momentum casting on all the blinds to start. One could, once the pattern is taught, use angle casts, stopping on line and angle casting to each blind, the short ones . Then send for the two long ones to get the momentum. I trained with Mary Hillman a couple of summers, diagramed/showed her the drill, when she was running Viking before he titled, and she said it helped. I learned the blind drill from Leslie Karnes before she left trials as a pro to hunt tests.

    Now I am really confused on the terminology, because my split drill doesn't sound anything like what is described.

    Let's try another brand of fruit as Dennis says, no wonder these folks get so confused with the various programs and took me years to understand Rex Carr's notes, he didn't put a lot of names on drills. Mike Lardy put it a more understandable format, although I still believe it came from one source, just modified by experienced folks.
    Earl Dillow

  6. #26
    Senior Member PalouseDogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post

    Hillmann in his new DVD does a much shorter and simple single T, followed by some casting drills, a star drill which is somewhat like your diagram and then he does walk-out blinds before cold blinds.

    I follow Lardy except when I start cold blinds, I do a mixture of cold blinds, multiple (2-3) walk-around blinds(these are like Hillmann's walk-outs) and I do a series of repeat blinds(but not pattern blinds) after several days/weeks since I ran them cold. I find this set of 3 procedures makes a smoother transition to just cold blinds, lining and casting is practiced and attitude is very high. I'll let you describe Smartworks variants from all the other variants.

    Cheers
    Thank you for your clarification. Total newb questions: What is a walk-out blind? What is a repeat blind?
    Kelly Cassidy (person)

    HR Maple Cassidy CDX JH RE (golden retriever)
    Alder Cassidy CDX RE (standard poodle chipmunk chaser)
    plus whacked-out weird Burka (elderly mix-breed rescue girl)

  7. #27
    Senior Member Rnd's Avatar
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    Earl,

    So much can be taken from these two sentence's.

    Let's try another brand of fruit as Dennis says, no wonder these folks get so confused with the various programs and took me years to understand Rex Carr's notes, he didn't put a lot of names on drills. Mike Lardy put it a more understandable format, although I still believe it came from one source, just modified by experienced folks.
    1) As Dennis so clearly stated: How many drills are there for the same "named" drill??

    2) Mike sure made it easy for the masses to understand what Rex was trying to advance.

    3) Mike also was the first to give the average Joe (me/us) the "inside baseball" scoop. If you will.

    4) There has been many modifications to that one source.


    Paraphrased " The Derby today was the open yesterday" DL,,, (I think)


    Thanks again, Randy
    May you pin all the marks and line the blinds!!

    Avatar courtesy of RTF"s TZAPPIA

  8. #28
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    Randy,

    I have been to several Lardy seminars, the last about three or four years ago with one ofmy dogs. The game is fluid and the terminology changes. Had to laugh when I got critiqued in front of many of my peers. I when back to my truck and pouted some, got over it and came back out. You never stop learning and you have to keep up with the lingo. We have Training Retrievers Alone, Dennis Voight, Men of Steel, Evan Graham, Farmer/Aycock Solutions, Lardy's first and second DVD, Curtis/ Kappes etc. My daughter is in dogs, buys the material and I borrow it. She makes a lot more money then me. My point, except for the terminology, if you study the tapes,take notes like a college class, one would be surprised at the similar end results. Just got through with the Rorem/Carr handling DVD. I suggest that one take notes, review them, ask questions on the forum or go to a PM. Remember if you go for snack, those few minutes might be the most important part. It's all good and about the dogs . Review many find a program that fits your needs and stick with it.
    Last edited by Criquetpas; 02-09-2013 at 09:55 PM.
    Earl Dillow

  9. #29
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    Evan

    I fear that people are talking about very different things here...

    Cheers
    I think you're right Dennis. And that has been my concern from the beginning. I'm less certain than ever what the program being discussed may really be. I still use pattern work...briefly with most. I've used some 5-leg work with my current dog. But I don't think what's being suggested by the OP has a close connection with anything conventional. Still not sure though.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
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  10. #30
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PalouseDogs View Post
    Thank you for your clarification. Total newb questions: What is a walk-out blind? What is a repeat blind?
    Depends who you are talking to unfortunately.

    Hillmann uses the term "walk-out blind" for one in which you walk out with the dog, let him see you plant a blind and then you walk back to the line together and you send the dog for the blind.

    I use the term "walk-around blind" for the same thing but when I do these I invariably put out 2 or 3 and thus the dog and I walk-around. When you get back to the starting line the dog knows there are bumpers out there. He often thinks he knows where they are but often doesn't thus you have a chance to handle. The dog goes with confidence.

    Somewhat unfortunately, at the time I was using this method and this terminology, Mike Lardy explained "walk-around blinds" in his DVD. In his case, he walked around a pond and put out several bumpers on the far shore. He then goes and gets the dog and sends for these but the dog has not walked around with you. They are multiple cold blinds

    I tried to straighten my good friend, Mike, out on this terminology but it was too late That's how it goes. Mostly we are in strong agreement

    Repeat Blinds can be any blind cold blind that you repeat. However, once a dog is well into Transition work you want to avoid repeating blinds back-to-back for the most part. That is don't go back to the same spot. You can gain the advantage of some familiarity with an earlier run blind and some "coldness" by delaying a repeat for day or a week. Thus my repeat blinds are not back-to-back but delayed for a period. Dogs will remember some and go with confidence but perhaps not line.

    There are some great advanced blinds that we repeat every year. The older dogs sometimes remember and master them. Other times it just another almost cold blind but they do better than average. There are only so many good blinds on a property-use them wisely
    Dennis

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