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Newbie Needing Some Help... Should I Buy This Pup?

12K views 61 replies 35 participants last post by  mountain man 
#1 ·
Hey guys, got referred to this site a few weeks ago in my search for a hunting lab and have learned a great deal over that time. I'm new to the hunting dog scene and have been looking for the right dog for about a month now, but I really can't afford to spend $1,000 on one at this point. However, I did come across a lady that has an AKC registered pup that comes from Kellogg bloodlines on the Sire's side and a history of hunting champions on the Dam's side as well. The Sire's pedigree is also loaded with champions from the grandparents back...

The lady is selling the males from this litter for $400, but my only concern is that there is no health certifications regarding these pups. They are guaranteed for 48 hours to have them checked by your local veterinarian and if there are any issues then she will take the pup back. Should I steer clear of this due to the lack of health guarantees? I feel like I could potentially get a lot of dog for the money, but I also don't want to make a $400 mistake. Thanks in advance for your help.
 
#31 ·
The date of birth of the dam of the litter is 11-19-11? How sad.
 
#32 ·
There was a recent post by Chris A that showed what percentage of talent was thrown by each generation. I wil look and see if I can find it.
 
#33 ·
I would pass on this litter. At $400 per pup that includes no health guarantees (48hrs and a check by a vet is a guarantee of nothing) I think she is over-charging. I do recognize quite a few of the show champions on the dam's side, which is a possible plus for coming from stock that was health tested, but it is not close enough to this litter in pedigree to hope that much filtered down. A lot of negative genetic influence can be added in just a couple of generations. The heavy show influence does not bode well for natural hunting instincts. Many of these famous show kennels would absolutely admit that they care nothing about retrieving instict - don't even know what is needed in a good hunting retriever. The sire's side has a lot of Kellogg in it, which by one posters opinion means it's good hunting stock, but that's it.

This breeder just might be clueless, but the fact that she is breeding her female so young (bred at 14 months??) would tell me she is not the kind of person you want to support in her breeding business/hobby/whatever it may be. Either she is very naive and doesn't know what she is doing, or wanting to turn a quick buck and sell puppies to the pet public who don't know any better.

$400 is the just the beginnig of the dog's cost of owernship. You could easily spend that much in the first year alone on food, toys, crate, and vet visits for vaccine boosters and heartworm preventative. You will probably be much happier if you move on past this litter and find a good breeder to get a pup from.
 
#34 ·
All I sw from the pedigree was a ton of CH in front of the names. I think the pup would be pretty darn good looking. Will it hunt?? Can't tell you that. I would keep looking for sure. Look at any pedigree with FC AFC MH SH HRCH etc.. Etc.. Gives you a better shot at a family hunting dog.

I personally don't like to spend a ton of money of pups either. My first dog was only $300.00. Her sire and Dam were regulars but the grandparents were Creek Robber etc... Try looking at for something like that. Plus this was a frist time breeder, just wanted one litter for her dog. She wanted good homes for the pups. Our dog is now a MH and a bargain for the price!! We got lucky. Next dog was only $600.00 out of an AFC and QAA. Another good price plus health cert. For the extra couple buck buy wisely.

Also Rainmaker hit it right in the first 2 posts for sure! Next clue is breeding dog at 14 months. Not in my world!

Good luck in your search! Lots of good dogs out there!
 
#35 ·
As always I really appreciate the help fellas. See, it probably wouldn't have raised a flag for me that the breeding dog was only 14 months. Do you guys prefer 2+ years old for the dam, or older? As you all have suggested, I think I'm going to pass on this litter and continue the search. Hopefully something will come up in my price range.

Also, even though this is my first hunting dog, I am not new to dog ownership. I realize that the purchase price of the dog is far from the overall price of owning the dog, and in fact is just a small percentage of it. I also definitely see the benefit of spending a few extra bucks on a health certified dog to potentially save you a lot of extra bucks on vet bills. However, I'm recently married and in my last semester of college so I'd be lying if I said there's not a difference in spending $400 and $800 on a pup. I don't want you guys to take that as I'm not prepared to take care of my dogs as I should because that is far from the truth, but that extra $400 does make a difference to me right now. My wife already doesn't understand why I want to go buy a pup when the neighbor down the street is giving away labs for free! :rolleyes: Haha
 
#55 ·
....I'm recently married and in my last semester of college so I'd be lying if I said there's not a difference in spending $400 and $800 on a pup. I don't want you guys to take that as I'm not prepared to take care of my dogs as I should because that is far from the truth, but that extra $400 does make a difference to me right now. ...
One or two trips to the vet trying to fix a health problem will quickly eat up any money you think you saved. I wouldn't buy a pup from anybody that hasn't taken the time to get the health clearances done.
 
#36 ·
Maddog, about three years ago I was where you are jumped the gun not knowing one lab fro the next "kudos to you for the research". Long story short 18mos. And thousands later sold her for 300.00 to a nice retired couple "she had the drive and desire of a rock". Here we are just shy of a year after that and I wouldn't trade this little guy for nothing. All I'm sayin is they make more everyday be patient it will pay off.
 
#37 ·
I'm glad you're going to think about things and look a bit more, if for no other reason than not supporting a breeder such as this one appears to be. Yes, 14 months is pretty young, especially when you consider that gestation is 9 weeks and it sounds like these pups are ready to go home soon, the dam to the litter was maybe not even a year old when bred. Final hip/elbow OFA clearances can't be done before 24 months, though some breed off of "prelims", they generally wait for at least a second heat cycle when doing so and not too many reputable breeders would breed a one year old bitch regardless.

You're newly married, you'll learn sooner or later, the fine art of negotiation, gotta figure how to sweeten the deal for her and wiggle out a little extra $$ for a pup. :)
 
#38 ·
Everything else aside, don't settle on the question of health testing! I've had 3 inquiries in recent months from families who have lost their lab to CNM, which is completely, inexcusably preventable with health testing. They definitely don't want to make the same mistake again and have had to learn the hard way about the value of testing. Don't be like them! My advice is to pass on this litter, and find one from health screened dogs. A couple people have posted leads for really nice litters for not much more than this risky litter is going to cost you. Definitely well worth it to look into other options.
 
#39 ·
#40 ·
Look at post #2 and see the percent contribution that previous dams and sires make to a puppy. If you go back very far it is pretty minimal. For instance great, great grandparents would on contribute 6.25% each.
That is an interesting post. However, I am skeptical that the percentages truly work the way that the chart displays them. Essentially all they did was half the percentage contributed by the previous generation until they totaled 100%. That is probably just the engineer in me that doubts their figures though haha. I would say realistically that it varies quite a bit from dog to dog as to how much they pick up from each generation. However, I do agree that the bulk of the genetic make-up of a pup is going to come from parents and grandparents. Still, it gives a good idea of how the genetics of past generations fade as new litters are born.
 
#41 ·
I ended up going cheap(er) on my first purebred lab as an adult and ended up with a dog that required thousands of $$$ worth of surgeries, medications, supplements, etc. due to elbow dysplasia and hip dysplasia, as well as a dog that has to constantly be monitored and premedicated with pain meds if getting excessive exercise one day.

Don't do it.
What you save up front will cost a LOT more down the road.
 
#42 ·
I know some of us sound pretty elitist and holier than thou about breeding on here, but mostly, it's because we are heavily involved with our breeds and want only the best for them, not just our own dogs but all of them. When we see substandard breeding practices, it is sad and frustrating. There are standards in every industry, including animal husbandry. Substandard is substandard, but when it involves the care of companion animals, we can get especially ferocious.

Does doing hips/elbows/eyes guarantee a dog won't have problems in those areas? No, not as simple as that, unfortunately, but it does at least provide a standard of care and by looking at generations of clearances on OFA, one can try to do their best when breeding. Just not doing anything for clearances is substandard, there is no valid reason for not doing them. There are good, solid hunting dogs that never see a test or trial and have no titles close in their pedigree. If you can see them work and like the dogs, there is nothing wrong with getting yourself a meat dog from them. Or taking a chance on hunting even if you never see one of the parents pick up so much as a tennis ball. But there is just zero reason, zero justification for anyone to not be doing OFA hips (avg $200-400), getting an eye exam (avg under $50) and having at least one of the parents be tested clear of EIC and CNM ($65 & $55) before they breed. Greed and/or ignorance are not valid excuses for substandard care.
 
#43 · (Edited)
Maddog,
THere are several posts here about BYB dogs that have turned out great. I'm one the guys who had the other experience. 1st dog was BYB bred but that was 30 years ago, really nice dog and no problems. 2nd dog BYB bread $250, decent pray drive really nice around the house, but displastic at the age of 7. Rymidal at $ per day till she was 13, 3rd dog BYB bread $400. Really good prey drive, decent in the house, but aggressive around other dogs and did not like kids developed dysplasia at age 6 and allergies by age 7. Switched to Deremax for anti inflammatory meds cost is a bit ore than a $ per day, allergy shots were >$300 per year.

Having two experiences in a row with hip dysplasia was no fun and very expensive. Clearances are no guarantee, but at least you've put the odds in your favor. I hate to admit that I'm a slow learner, but the evidence listed above proves it:). Dog I have now cost more than $ 400, parents were both OFA excellent and he is OFA good. Still no guarantee, but odds are a lot better. He'll be 4 soon so far so good. My advice would be to save 1$ per day for the next 6 months and keep looking. There are lots of nice dogs in that $600 range.
 
#44 ·
You have been given some EXCELLENT advice and offered some TERRIFIC opportunities!

Spend as much as you can afford for the best pedigree and health assurances you can get.
You will never regret it!
 
#45 ·
I was looking for a pup in the range you are in also. It took me about 3 months calling almost everyday getting info and going over pedigrees. But i did end up finding one in that range with really good bloodlines. Dad is rmr lean mack n cheeze which is a jh and grandpa is ebonstar lean mac which has a lot of champions some of the guys on here may know him and grandma was a mh. BUT they did not come with any health cert. but almost all the dogs in bloodline have them on hips and eyes. So it is possible. But about the pics you showed on here i seen bayou bend jake. He is a guys out of paragould ar that breeds. I have not had one of his out of this bloodline but have had 3 from him and were really smart dogs but that bloodline was all show it looked like so i passed up his last litter. If you are close to him he has a litter now with that bloodline and the male is bamf which is from backwoods retriever training its his personal dog. $500 If you can message me where you live i could possibly help ya with finding a pup if your close to me
 
#46 ·
maddog,
I hate to post this but it is the truth. As I mentioned the Kellogg line WAS fantastic but...after old Mayo died 10- or so yrs ago his son took over the kennel for a few yrs and it went to pot. He bred dogs for money..quantity vs quality. As mentioned, it didn't last but a few yrs. I would be a little skeptical of kelloggs lines that are more recent than about '04ish. Anything newer than that was most likely just pumped out. Old Mayo bred pups, worked them and trained dogs all day long. So if lines are prior to about '04 I would consider them legit, if not I would have some concerns. Just my thoughts. Good luck in what you choose.
 
#48 ·
Sorry for what I'm about to do but a lot of people are being very generous and sending me PM's to try to help me out and the board requires me to have 10 posts before I can reply to them so I need to boost my post count. Just skip my next few posts. lol
 
#53 ·
no problem i know its hard to find a good dog around here ha. But there is a place up towards stlouis in Il called Fox Creek Labs their pups go for 400 to 450 and most of her older dogs have pretty good bloodlines not as good as some but a lot better then a byb. http://foxcreeklabs.com/ and i have found alot on craigslist if you just type in akc lab, akc, lab puppies etc. Most of the time something will come up. pick up a trader paper alot of breeders from Il and Ky put their litters in there. and sorry had to post on here cause i couldnt send pm either
 
#56 ·
kyle
no its not a bad thing, he was one of the best dogs from wut i kno, im pretty new myself but he is one that i kno was very popular, as was his son five star general patton, the pup im getting in march has lean mac twice, he was just bred a lot, n just doing my research for a pup and reading pedigrees hes in a ton. i
 
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