Force Fetch Question

[Gauge123]

I'm following Evan's FF method. We started FF Friday. I know I don't want him to go through it too fast. but he figured out how to turn the pressure off quick.

Friday-3rd fetch he grabbed for the stick (using a wooden dowel). We did it 4-5 more times. I'm doing this on the tailgate. Then I placed the stick on the tailgate opposite side from where he is sitting. He bit me but then saw the stick and dragged me to the stick. Even though I got bit, I counted it a success, because he figured out the only way to get the pressure off was to get that stick. We did it 4-5 more times.

Saturday Morning-We started on the tailgate again. He would try to break sit (and reach for the stick)as soon as I touched his ear. I began lowering the stick. On the 3rd time he was getting it off the tailgate. He had no problem getting it from across the tailgate. By the 3rd-4th time I was holding him back and making him drag me to the stick. I moved him to the ground and placed the stick about 10 feet away. He did fine.

Saturday evening- 3-4 times on the tailgate and then we moved to the ground. I used a paint roller this time. I put the roller on the ground about 12 feet away. Now he is very fidgity as I try to get his collar and ear positioned. Once, I was ready and commanded fetch he was digging his way to the roller. The second time he tried to fight me for a few seconds but quickly decided he'd get that roller. 3-4 more times and I quit.

Sunday Morning- I used a stool instead of the tailgate. He did just fine with 4-5 commands and the roller on the ground. So I did 3-4 with the roller about 12 feet away and me holding him back slightly. I quit calling it a great success.

Sunday Afternoon -I used a coke bottle. He knew exactly what he needed to do to get the pressure off. We did 4-5 times at 12 feet and then 1 at about 20 feet. I quit with that.

My question is: How long do I keep it up. He has learned much faster than I thought he would. I don't want to move on to quick, but I don't want to mess up by continuing for too long.

[rbr]

I believe you are far more likely to mess up by moving on too soon.

[Evan]

I'm following Evan's FF method. We started FF Friday. I know I don't want him to go through it too fast. but he figured out how to turn the pressure off quick.

Friday-3rd fetch he grabbed for the stick (using a wooden dowel). We did it 4-5 more times. I'm doing this on the tailgate. Then I placed the stick on the tailgate opposite side from where he is sitting. He bit me but then saw the stick and dragged me to the stick. Even though I got bit, I counted it a success, because he figured out the only way to get the pressure off was to get that stick. We did it 4-5 more times.

Saturday Morning-We started on the tailgate again. He would try to break sit (and reach for the stick)as soon as I touched his ear. I began lowering the stick. On the 3rd time he was getting it off the tailgate. He had no problem getting it from across the tailgate. By the 3rd-4th time I was holding him back and making him drag me to the stick. I moved him to the ground and placed the stick about 10 feet away. He did fine.

Saturday evening- 3-4 times on the tailgate and then we moved to the ground. I used a paint roller this time. I put the roller on the ground about 12 feet away. Now he is very fidgity as I try to get his collar and ear positioned. Once, I was ready and commanded fetch he was digging his way to the roller. The second time he tried to fight me for a few seconds but quickly decided he'd get that roller. 3-4 more times and I quit.

Sunday Morning- I used a stool instead of the tailgate. He did just fine with 4-5 commands and the roller on the ground. So I did 3-4 with the roller about 12 feet away and me holding him back slightly. I quit calling it a great success.

Sunday Afternoon -I used a coke bottle. He knew exactly what he needed to do to get the pressure off. We did 4-5 times at 12 feet and then 1 at about 20 feet. I quit with that.

My question is: How long do I keep it up. He has learned much faster than I thought he would. I don't want to move on to quick, but I don't want to mess up by continuing for too long.

My question is what's with the stick and coke bottle? Are there no paint rollers available? Second, it's very unusual for FF to move along quite this fast, unless your dog is just beating the drill instead of becoming conditioned to pressure. Any chance of posting up a video clip of a session?

Evan

[DropinBack]

Once you think he has it... keep doing it because if you move to fast you will simply go backwards...

[rbr]

The dog is smart and he figured it out quickly. That is not the same as a conditioned response.

[Gauge123]

I agree. That's why I put this thread up.

Evan, your comment that he is "beating the drill instead of becoming conditioned" is a good way of wording it.

What do I look for to determine that he is truely conditioned instead of beating the drill? To me they look the same.

What if I play the game longer? I think after 15-20 minutes he is going to get fed up with the drill and balk. If he balks I can show him that he is going to do it or else. Do I push him that long or will that have adverse affects? It seems like it might not end on a good note.

The other objects came into play at the suggestion of a trainer in my area. He assisted me on day one. He has always used a dowel, where you use the roller. Several others use a dummy and still others reccoment using additional objects to reinforce the idea of "It doesn't matter what I say to fetch you will fetch it". I am going to defend the use of multiple object by saying Gauge has shown no sign of acknowledging the different objects. He saw me hold it or put it down and knew that was the object to be fetched. (I already know I'll get arguements about that).

[Evan]

Evan, your comment that he is "beating the drill instead of becoming conditioned" is a good way of wording it.

I've had practice both seeing it, and describing it!

What do I look for to determine that he is truely conditioned instead of beating the drill? To me they look the same.

It looks a bit differently with each one. That's why some video would be so useful. It may also illustrate a flaw in the working dynamic between you and your dog that I can help with. We'll know more when it can be seen.

What if I play the game longer?

If you continue to do the same thing while expecting a different result, what would that be? *Hint; it starts with an "I".

Several others use a dummy and still others reccoment using additional objects to reinforce the idea of "It doesn't matter what I say to fetch you will fetch it".

That makes more sense when your dog has enough FF training to be held to a higher standard. You're just teaching it right now. For a trainer following Smartwork I recommend a paint roller, or at least one single object, and stay with that until your dog is becoming better trained at this.

Evan

[Gauge123]

I am out of town today. I'll try to get my son to video the excersize tonight.