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Thread: MH Blind- poor initial line

  1. #11
    Senior Member Billie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    Interesting question, enters a HT grey area. I've had a high dog, false-start on a blind and get only ~ 3-5ft from me off the line before I stop and cast them, but I've seen people bring the dog back on something like that as well and resend. I believe it's safer to stop and cast, but I've had judges ask me why I didn't just re-heeled. Still I've also seen people, under different judges failed for re-heeling after a false-start on a blind.

    So the rule I live by is when and if the dog goes, as soon as I notice the dog is off-line, even @ 3-5ft, stop and cast, sure this might completely destroy your momentum, but it's safer than bringing them back or letting them gain speed while off-line and casting. Judges might accuse you of cheating the blind if you do something like that, a blind is all about control, In a HT your much better off attempting to get them back on-line as soon as you can than letting them run off of it .
    As a judge, Im not going to want to see you reheel him on a blind- as someone said reheel to the truck...
    But, also, as a judge my answer is sensible as most of the others were- judge the WHOLE blind. As a handler, I was tossed once for a PIL ,despite having put the dog back on line quickly and handled nicely to the bird. So I guess all of us are different in what we want to see. Some are sticklers for one thing but lax on others, and vice versa . Interesting gang- anyone else care to comment on this?
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    Waterspook Kickin' Gunshot, SH ( Boom)
    Waterspook Kickin' Good Time MH(Kick)
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbr View Post
    In AKC I wouldn't try reheeling. You would be reheeling to the truck.
    Learned this lesson enough to know, that it Depends on the judges, some consider a false-start a confusion issue, most of the time it is, I appreciate those judges that afterward tell you, the dog was never sent, you should've re-heeled. I dislike pushing a dog to run when they've had a confusion issue, re-heeling would be so much more preferable. But handling a dog from 3 ft. in front, takes the decision out of the judges hands, I'll not be sent back to the truck on a maybe
    "They's Just DAWGS"
    "Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"
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    GMRH HRCH Quick MH (most importantly Duck/Upland Enthusiast)
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Golddogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    Learned this lesson enough to know, that it Depends on the judges, some consider a false-start a confusion issue, most of the time it is, I appreciate those judges that afterward tell you, the dog was never sent, you should've re-heeled. I dislike pushing a dog to run when they've had a confusion issue, re-heeling would be so much more preferable. But handling a dog from 3 ft. in front, takes the decision out of the judges hands, I'll not be sent back to the truck on a maybe
    Unless the false start was an autocast, you said nothing, better not be considered confuson by the judges and just an excited dog. No confusion allowed on blinds.

    As far as a PIL, I judge a blind in 3 parts: beginning, middle and end, and have had more handlers fail the end than the beginning.


    Handle all the way tho the end Regards.
    Never trust a dog to watch your food!

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    Learned this lesson enough to know, that it Depends on the judges, some consider a false-start a confusion issue, most of the time it is, I appreciate those judges that afterward tell you, the dog was never sent, you should've re-heeled. I dislike pushing a dog to run when they've had a confusion issue, re-heeling would be so much more preferable. But handling a dog from 3 ft. in front, takes the decision out of the judges hands, I'll not be sent back to the truck on a maybe
    A couple things. 1st I would never assume a judge will allow a reheel, 2nd if the judge allows a reheel due to confusion is the dog really at a MH level. I have my doubts. Of course MH dogs will occasionally take a poor line, but the handler also has to be up to MH level work and recover by quickly challanging the blind.
    Bert Rodgers

  5. #15
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    How does perseverance factor into a blind. A poor IL needs to be corrected. Am I the only one that thought what the hell when I read this post?
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyJ View Post
    If your dog has a poor initial line and you stop him quickly you might get dinged a little for perseverance but if you stop him and get him back on line quickly and cleanly you should have no problem attaining a passing score. A further note if your dog has a clean crisp stop and takes a good cast to the blind you might make up the ding on credit for trainability.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Jerry Beil's Avatar
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    Not a judge, and don't have a lot of experience in this area, but it would seem to me that you should at least get dinged for a poor initial line, but I wouldn't think dropped as long as you stopped him and got him back on line quickly. Also, since there are subsequent opportunities to run blinds, I'd think the judge would be paying attention to your next blind(s) to see if the poor initial line was an anomaly or the norm for the dog/handler.

    So what if the work on all 3 blinds is decent enough to pass other than poor initial lines on all three. Seems to me like a master level dog should be able to take a decent line.

    I guess perseverance might factor in if the poor initial line was due to some obstacle that the dog wanted to avoid. Like, lined up on heavy cover and he takes an initial line that would go around the cover.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Good Dogs's Avatar
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    I treat a PIL as a cast refusal, no more than that as Pup did not take the line his handler (should have) intended. The quicker pup gets back in good position for the blind, the better. (Why? 'Cause that's the way I was taught and it makes sense to me.) But I also tend to judge not the original error, but the recovery so if pup gets back in the fairway and stays there that PIL is not going to hurt him. After all, we build blinds so handlers can show us that their dogs can handle. But, if that PIL is carried for some distance, or if Pup does not respond to attempts to get back in position, the original error starts to compound quickly.

  8. #18
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    It is what it is, a poor initial line. I have a couple fairly highly trained dogs that know how to run blinds, that said, every once in awhile, for whatever reason, one of my dog's surprises me with a bad IL. It's not the end of the world, as a matter of fact, if we recover quickly and smoothly, it won't effect the trial a bit at the end of the day. A good IL gives you a step up on completing a pleasing blind, a bad IL puts you in a hole right off the bat, what you need to do as a handler is not panic and get your dog back on line with the least fuss possible, then complete the blind correctly.

    If you refuse to recognize the bad IL and let it get out of hand, then handle your dog back into the picture from way outside the peramiters, or have to fight your dog and hack him back on line, you will probably fail it.

    John

  9. #19
    Senior Member Billie's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the thoughful answers. It would seem that an automatic failure for a PIL (and that alone) is not the norm among sensible judges. I know that, that alone would not make me even consider failing a dog , but, as I said, it happened. ( years ago-)
    HOME OF:
    Waterspook Sables Dark Secret, MH (Sable)
    Trumarcs Bankshot Bandit, MH ( Fats)
    Waterspook Tomfoolery, SH ( Tommie)
    IN MEMORY OF::
    Waterspook Bankshot Whiz Bang,JH (Jesse)
    Waterspooks Girl Named Bill, SH ( Billie- my princess.....)
    Waterspook Kickin' Gunshot, SH ( Boom)
    Waterspook Kickin' Good Time MH(Kick)
    Waterspooks Partner In Crime, SH ( Bouncer)
    Brush Creek Waterspook, JH, WC- my first girl.(Spooky)

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by claimsadj View Post
    How does perseverance factor into a blind. A poor IL needs to be corrected. Am I the only one that thought what the hell when I read this post?
    IMO a PIL is probably a ding in trainability category, rather than perseverence. However if the PIL was due to not entering the water or some rough cover, then it could be a perseverence issue.

    Section 13. In Senior and Master Hunting Tests, failure
    to enter either rough cover, water, ice, mud, or any
    other situation involving unpleasant or difficult going for
    the dog, after having been ordered to do so several times,
    is sufficient cause to grade the dog “0” in Perseverance.
    Tom Dorroh

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