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Transitioning back to HRC

11K views 49 replies 23 participants last post by  duk4me 
#1 ·
I have 4 year old dog that got his HRCH at 20 months, then got away from HRC events and got QAA, MH, and 2 master National passes. Now I am transitioning back to HRC looking at a Grand title. His line manors are good (at Field Trial and MH levels) but not to a Grand standard. I am going to start tightening down on those but I also need to transition back to a bucket and a gun. Right now he is really focused on leg movement to turn not the gun. Obviously I am going to start doing HRC set ups, mostly singles and broken down triples but does anyone have any suggestions on drills I should run as well or any general advice. I was thinking about doing some no-no drills with him with a bucket and a gun but I wasn't sure if that would help or not.
 
#2 ·
I have 4 year old dog that got his HRCH at 20 months, then got away from HRC events and got QAA, MH, and 2 master National passes. Now I am transitioning back to HRC looking at a Grand title. His line manors are good (at Field Trial and MH levels) but not to a Grand standard.
I would just be happy with the HRCH, QAA, MH and say kiss my @ss HRC I don't need to turn my dog into a pig just to earn your GRHRCH title. But hey, that's just me.

Lonnie Spann
 
#6 ·
Not exactly. My problem with HRC is that my dog's line manners are just fine at regular hunt tests (never failed one single time for line manners), however at the "Grand" my dog was dropped for bouncing up and down on his front legs from the holding blind to the line. Guess I could get a dog that doesn't want to do the work and CRAWLS to the line and put a GRHRCH on him.

Signed,
Lonnie pissed off at HRC Spann
 
#5 ·
We wached a couple of young fellows training for the grand and one of the exercises they showed us was simply to sit on the bucket (pail here in Canada) and shuck the gun and swing on the bucket. Every once in awhile during the drill they wuld launch bird make the dog wait a couple of more swings and then send for the mark. It really helped my girl going to the grand.
 
#11 ·
So GRHRCH dogs are pigs?? Hmmm, news to me...
Did you ever think that your problem isn't the "Grand Standard" of obedience but maybe the fact that the ob standard at weekend HT's is not strict enough?? I've seen a lot of crap at the Grand that I do not agree with, AND I agree a steady, perfectly healing dog does not a "Grand Champion" make...BUT, I wouldn't go to an AKC test and pat my leg cause my dog didn't turn with me cause i wasn't sitting on a bucket shuckin shells and then bitch about being dropped.
Its better to be pissed off than pissed on regards...
 
#32 ·
So GRHRCH dogs are pigs?? Hmmm, news to me...
Did you ever think that your problem isn't the "Grand Standard" of obedience but maybe the fact that the ob standard at weekend HT's is not strict enough?? Yes, I have considered this and after consideration I have decided that since the HRC Rule Book has the exact same standard for a dog coming to the line in a Finished test as a dog coming to the line in the Grand, THEN THE JUDGING SHOULD BE THE EXACT SAME IN BOTH TESTS. I've seen a lot of crap at the Grand that I do not agree with, AND I agree a steady, perfectly healing dog does not a "Grand Champion" make...BUT, I wouldn't go to an AKC test and pat my leg cause my dog didn't turn with me cause i wasn't sitting on a bucket shuckin shells and then bitch about being dropped.
Its better to be pissed off than pissed on regards...
As far as being pissed off and being pissed on...well I am pissed off and I say PISS ON THE HRC GRAND HUNT COMMITTEE AND THE GRAND JUDGES WHO OBVIOUSLY HAVE NEVER TRAINED THEIR OWN GRHRCH BUT FEEL THE NEED TO DROP MY DOG WITHOUT EVER LETTING HIM SEE A MARK!

To the OP, sorry for hijacking your thread. I will go and start my own.

Regards,
Lonnie Spann
 
#36 ·
What does a judge never having trained their own GRHRCH have to do with your dog getting the hook for not having good heel work? OB is the easiest thing to work on, so you have no one to blame but yourself.

Either never run the event again or get over it and up your standards.
 
#39 ·
What does a judge never having trained their own GRHRCH have to do with your dog getting the hook for not having good heel work? I have NEVER trained a FC, a QAA, or a MH, but I will be glad to judge your dog while competing at any of those levels...do you think I am qualified to do so? OB is the easiest thing to work on, so you have no one to blame but yourself. Never been dropped for heel work at any HT except the Grand, that is what I didn't understand.

Either never run the event again or get over it and up your standards.
I'm over it, I quit twitching and breaking out with hives about a month ago ;-)

Lonnie Spann
 
#14 ·
Lonnie is not really that pissed off at HRC...he is running an event this weekend. The Grand Committee is another story...

Glad to have you back in the game. Make sure to enter the North Alabama events.
 
#19 ·
Allen I will certainly be at the North Alabama events, gotta finish the 500 points on Jack so HRC will give me that "free" jacket.

I will also be running the AKC Master at the Black Warrior event, maybe Joe Overby will be there and watch my dog turn with me without me shucking a shotgun ;-)

Regards,
Lonnie Spann
 
#17 ·
That is one of the funniest statements I've read on here in quite a while. Only thing I can tell you is your avatar puppy is to young to run the Grand. That is seriously funny hijacker.
 
#16 ·
Haven't ran a grand yet, but have gotten a lot of advice from those that have. Seems like you can get a pretty good idea of what you need to tightening for the grand by running the HRC tests, and attempting to enforce the stronger standard. Also remember your training, gun safety will fail you just as quick as dog line manners. Practice, proper gun mount, and safety doesn't go off until bird is in the air. Got to work on keeping the dog at heel, base of dogs tail doesn't pass in front of your knee. Single verbal commands of heel, sit, etc. I'd probably be working with a bunch of short in your face multiple, live flyers, figuring that if I could keep control, with live flyers, dead birds would be easier. Also Practice for the Upland portion, a lot of dogs will fail out with the excitement of the upland portion of the grand, it's probably the hardest series to maintain control on. Seems most of the amateur handlers I've talked to go out most frequently on simple handler mistakes, not sure how you deal with that, hard to learn while doing when you've only got one or two bullets, to play with.
 
#22 ·
To the original question, if your dog moves with your leg movement, either stand while running if it is an option or move your legs while on the bucket.
 
#25 ·
That is one of the problems of the Grand: vague guidelines. I have heard "you must sit on the bucket" and that standing is permissible. Both cannot be true. The rule book makes no mention. You also have to keep your hat on your head even though you are given a very nice handlers hat at the handlers meeting. I understand the seminar covers all of this but it is only given the day before the Grand. Hard to train for standards that are only specified the day before. If you don't have the option of training with someone successfully passing the Grand then I would focus my energies elsewhere.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Nate great accomplishments with your dog sounds like you have a very well balanced animal. I haven't ran the Grand but have trained with many that have had success. Of course the dog has to mark the birds, but holding the dog together for several series of shooting poppers over them while keeping their butt on the ground is the key to success. There are many great dogs out there but not all are geared to play the Grand, just the same that not all Grand dogs will become all age qualified. They all are different. From the truck to the holding blind to the line, everything nice and slow. Maintain high standards all around. Use lots of holding blinds, making the dog wait his turn with excitement going in the field. Be the first one in the holding blind and the last to run. Put birds absolutely where the dogs don't want to go. Use wingers with nice arcs on throws, no noise in the field. Start off with singles/multiple stations no gun at the line just sit on the bucket, keep the dogs butt on the ground, and let him find his mark. Later up the standard by shooting a 20 gauge at the line with singles not pointing the gun at the birds just yet, we are still focused on keeping his butt on the ground. Put the bird where he doesn't want to go, run single marks that will build off of each other. Tough control blinds, through old falls and under arcs.

Good training brother

http://www.walkbyfaithretrievers.com/
 
#24 ·
Sorry left one very important thing out. Use natural brush, trees, or clumps as your winger hides. Don't expose gun stations. A winger hide is still very much exposed. Winger hides out in the open are great for weekend HRCH and MH tests but not the Grand.
 
#29 ·
I would prepare for the Grand by doing nothing but OB work in the morning and evening for a couple of weeks about three months before the Grand. Tighten that obedience up drum tight well in advance. Then, bring it to the field, upholding that elevated OB standard.

Your standards have to (obviously) elevate on all fronts. As I said, about 3 months out, I ran lots of singles and doubles to firm up marking/lining and ran lots of factorless cold blinds so I made sure my casting was rock solid. Then, about a 2 months out, start elevating the factors in your set-ups. Almost like drills before taking it to scrimmage.

Hope that I'm making sense....
 
#30 ·
The individual that was in charge of acquiring, ordering, and approving those jackets decided on that particular style. My 1000 pt jacket has that lovely feature...My 1500 pt jacket does not. I do not think the new ones have "backwards" zippers as HRC has recently changed vendors.
 
#31 ·
The "Grand Standard" is an elusive little creature that is difficult to nail down as it changes depending on the judge. The best advice I could give was that given to me at a grand several years ago. If you have to say heel more than once from the blind to the line then you're not ready...If you have to say sit more than once one the line than you're not ready...

The judges are looking for "the best of the best" so taking that into context the "best" shouldn't need to be told more than once to do something. Do I feel it goes a little too far??? Sure. But like a blind, the number of whistles is irrelevant if the dog worked well with the handler. They really wanna see a "team" between you and the dog.

That said, line manners aren't the only thing to work on. Judges want to see better than good initial lines on blinds, crisp whistle sits, and prompt, accurate responses to casts given. While cast refusals are subjective, you don't want to leave it to the judges for interpretation. They also want to see good, clean marks and tighter than normal hunt areas. A big hunt will leave you with a pair of ones just as fast as a handle on a mark or loose blind will...big hunt is subjective here as what is normally acceptable in a weekend test WILL NOT fly at the Grand. Big hunts get more people in trouble than OB, IMO.

The weeks leading up to the Grand for me are riddled with lining drills, tune up drills, push-pull drills, cheating singles, and high confidence singles. NO LINE MOVEMENT is tolerated whatsoever, and standards across the board are elevated. Now, some would say "shouldn't you be upholding that standard all the time?" Sure, but undoubtedly our standards become lax during periods of complacency running and passing weekend tests and there is a great need by the handler to recognize what the standard should be and strive to uphold that in the months leading up to the Grand. The average pass rate at the Grand hovers somewhere around 20% and only about 10% of all dogs that have ever gone on to earn their HRCH titles have ever achieved their GRHRCH titles as well...the Grand Standard is what makes this so difficult. Up your standards....
 
#34 ·
Joe, I don't have the Rule Book in front of me but I am almost certain that before running the Grand I read it thoroughly and the best I remember it is verbatim. I will look in the Rule Book and get back with you.

Lonnie Spann
 
#35 ·
From the 2011 Rule Book, available online:

From the 2011 Rule Book:
Guidelines-Judging Grand Hunt Tests
IV.
The Judge should look for the dog that walks obediently
to the line, sits obediently and exhibits an attentive
attitude.

Guidelines-Judging Finished Hunt Tests

IV. The Judge should look for the dog that walks

obediently to the line, sits obediently, and exhibits an

attentive attitude.


Lonnie Spann
 
#45 ·
From the 2013 rule book

Steadiness - Seasoned, Finished and Grand
Retrievers are required to be steady at the line without
physical or excessive verbal restraint. A controlled
break (Judges must decide distance prior to running
the test) will result in a mark down at the Seasoned and
Finished levels and a failure at the Grand level. In the
event of a controlled break, the retriever must stop and
return quickly to the line when directed to do so.

Response to Direction - When a Handler chooses
to direct their retriever with voice, whistle, and/or hand
signals, the retriever should respond. Dogs entered in
the Grand Hunt test will be judged much harder than
Upland Hunter, Finished or Seasoned
, but in all cases,
excessive refusals by the retriever can result in failure.
The Judges must decide in each test what excessive is
and judge accordingly.

Ok, I understand it has NOTHING to do with walking at heel BUT it does show an increase in difficulty and a change in standard from the weekend hts and the Grand. Listen Lonnie, I agree with you...walking at heel is the silliest thing a judge could ever put weight on at an event like this. If you look at page 33 in the rule book it gives 5 specific criteria by which to judge a retriever.
1. Marking Ability and memory
2. Nose
3. Hunting Desire
4. CONTROL
5. Hunting Style
You will see that Control is the 4th thing on that list...marking being the first...which would you think should carry more weight?? And for that, for several years now, Grand judges have been ENTIRELY too quick to make a handler "put the dog on the bird" IMO...and not let the dog hunt...they are called HUNTING retrievers. There are things I don't like, agree with, or condone but its not up to me. As far as Grand judges never having trained their own GRHRCH...there was a time I thought exactly that...then I met and ran under guys like David Mclendon and Jim Hodges...theyve never reached the GRHRCH title but I promise you they belong in that judges chair. Be mad at the Grand Committee...hell you aint the only one with ill feelings however, IMO the best thing you could do is make em give you the ribbon when you pass their test...
 
#41 ·
Judging two grands I never picked a dog up on the way to or from the line, and only dinged one for the trip. I did pick one dog up at the line for barking from the time he got there until the time that he tried to jump on the honor dog. Out of all the dogs that I looked at through two grands those are the only two worth mentioning.
As far as looking for the best of the best,well therein lies the moving target. The best dog doesn't always pass the grand, and there again the term best is subjective. For me personally the two best dogs that I have ever owned and raised so far (mother and son) will never see a grand because historically the grand doesn't favor that type of dog and they are doing something else. That is the mother in the avatar.
 
#42 ·
Although I have never met you, I certainly respect you.

Lonnie Spann
 
#46 ·
Good post Joe.
 
#47 ·
Just wonderin...... How is it the vast majority of the dogs (>90%) are pro handled and almost as many pro trained. This in an organization professing to be "for hunters, by hunters".
I have wondered this since seeing handlers and dogs at a Grand fail to see a bird, dogs I had judged and admired that past year. Also seeing dogs pass that....well never mind. Yet those dogs are called the best of the best????? For this judge it called into question the validity of the event. Please do not misunderstand, many, many of the dogs with GRHRCH in front of their name fully deserve the moniker, yet the system is predisposed to eliminating a class of dogs many of us admire, not for their work as a retriever but rather the whim of a judge who confuses OB with performance to a ridiculous degree.

Sorry for the Hijack - felt contrary tonight. Have fun training this weekend and good luck to all at the Spring Grand
 
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