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Thread: left-sided and both sided dogs

  1. #101
    Senior Member Rnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    Chris, dog training is not rigid, there is not one way, a right way, or a wrong way. There are some fundamental principles common to all good dog trainers. If the successful two sided trainers and the successful one sided trainers changed philosophy I expect the results would be the same.

    Your new RTF has a high percentage of naive and inexperienced people and I think it is important that they understand that success is not only based on certain sound training principles but also the application of those principles. If I was a naive newcomer and read this dissertation I would conclude that success in field trials was only possible by using two sided heeling and employing a heeling stick in training. If anyone trained with my group they would not see two sided heeling and might only see a heeling stick a few times a year. I have several heeling sticks but I do not remember the last time I used one for anything other than dragging something out of my toolbox that I could not reach.

    Almost everyone who trains competition retrievers successfully follows a sequential process adapted to their own personality and preferences. We all train similar but very dissimilar in the way we apply corrections, lack of corrections, and praise.

    My intent is not to dismiss what others do or impose on their routine what I/we do but rather to inform the uninformed that there is more than one way to skin a critter. Just MHO and thanks for reading!

    Great post Dr. Ed..................The mental state of RTF is well and alive..

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  2. #102
    Senior Member Mike Peters-labguy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    There is one practical aspect of two sided heeling. When duck hunting the door to the blind is not always on the left side. If you have a two sided dog it works much better in my opinion for this.

    I have never had a two sided dog but I am trying to teach Rowdy two sides. I started learning the two sided technique with Hank (my sons dog). Both seem to be doing well with it.
    This is true. I use to teach all my dogs 2 sided but Mr. Yozamp has converted me and my dogs to one sided. I do teach all of them the term "place" for the hunting blind issue.
    Mike Peters

  3. #103
    Senior Member duk4me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    Robt.'s saying he plans to use this year's bonus from the laird to outfit all his friends with e-collars and heeling sticks - and of course pink Dallesasse whistles, which they will blow 'til their hearts' content when Hearts of Midlothian win the Scottish Cup again. Go you Glorious Jambos!

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  4. #104
    Senior Member John Lash's Avatar
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    I think that there are more one sided and two sided people than dogs.

    When asked, a successful Pro told me you can run your dog from between your legs if he knows where the bird is...
    John Lash

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  5. #105
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    Chris, dog training is not rigid, there is not one way, a right way, or a wrong way. There are some fundamental principles common to all good dog trainers. If the successful two sided trainers and the successful one sided trainers changed philosophy I expect the results would be the same.

    Your new RTF has a high percentage of naive and inexperienced people and I think it is important that they understand that success is not only based on certain sound training principles but also the application of those principles. If I was a naive newcomer and read this dissertation I would conclude that success in field trials was only possible by using two sided heeling and employing a heeling stick in training. If anyone trained with my group they would not see two sided heeling and might only see a heeling stick a few times a year. I have several heeling sticks but I do not remember the last time I used one for anything other than dragging something out of my toolbox that I could not reach.

    Almost everyone who trains competition retrievers successfully follows a sequential process adapted to their own personality and preferences. We all train similar but very dissimilar in the way we apply corrections, lack of corrections, and praise.

    My intent is not to dismiss what others do or impose on their routine what I/we do but rather to inform the uninformed that there is more than one way to skin a critter. Just MHO and thanks for reading!
    Dr. Ed,

    I've gone back and read this entire thread, post by post. I do not understand how anyone could come out of this thread interpreting the sentence I've highlighted in black.

    I believe that it is extremely well balanced with some liking it one way, some liking it another.

    The only reason the sit stick came up was someone asked what it was.

    I've never gotten my dog to the water marks in an all age trial. I'm sure as heck not trying to say that what I do is going to get me or anyone else to the Nationals.

    I'm just trying to have fun and be helpful where I can.

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Criquetpas View Post
    Ed, come out early judging the limited for Blackhawk on the grounds where the National Amat. Will be held. You will be deep in two sided country.
    Earl - several years back a dog from your area was sent to one of the local trainers - I think the dog was a National Derby Champion - The dog was a nice size, nice looking, nice moving animal & completed his FC here - Several of the locals bred to the dog & got some fairly nice pups - In training I never saw the dog run from both sides but did notice that the owner attended a local trial & could not seem to leave the dog on the truck - the owner's contribution was to get the dog out of the truck & & practice 2 sided heeling. I also noticed the dog never got the AFC, in fact, don't believe the dog ever placed in an AM. As has been posted by several here, a tool is only useful in a skilled mechanic's hands .
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  7. #107
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Let me repeat: There is a conceptual advantage to the two sided dog. However, I have only seen a handful of people who are able to actualize that advantage.

    Over the years, I have competed against many handlers, and judged many handlers. Very few are competent on one side, let alone two.

    Yes, I know many of you say that you and your dog are competent on both sides. I will simply say that my personal experience differs.

    Many people think that they are masters, very few are.

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  8. #108
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    Marvin, I believe it was FC Topgun Able Oakley owned by John Haight. John is a member of our local club. I trained with John when Oakley was about 9 months old and he was going bird for bird as singles with several field champions including mine. John was very involved in his business at the time and had limited time. He put the dog with Pro Andy Attar for training, the dog was two sided at the time. I had a derby dog at the time and ran against Oakley many times.
    John Ran him sometimes as did his trainer Andy Attar. He became National Derby Champion, then developed a terrible spinning problem on water. I was training with John and watched him spin about 50 yards across a piece of water. It was a case in my opinion that he , John, against the advice of his pro, to chase derby points rather then bring him along on blinds and all age training. He was sent out West and I think Don trained him and made his FC. He had a old shoulder injury that got worse. Trained with John some and as I remember he was one sided. His AFC alluded him and he was retired. He was in my opinion the greatest water quad dog I ever saw run, but, had blind issues. So your point I guess one sided two sided etc is just a tool.
    Earl Dillow

  9. #109
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    Marvin, went back and read your post, yeah I remember John doing the two sided shuffle at a trial before he ran Him.
    I call it the forced march, some just march back and forth, sometimes with stick up. John did the shuffle. I used to throw 4 very short bumpers before I ran, not five not three but four. It could be along side road or where the truck was parked. John did the shuffle. P.S. Don't throw the bumpers anymore.
    Earl Dillow

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breck View Post
    What?
    It's hard enough understanding you guys from across the pond when you're not being cryptic.
    Don't worry, we can't understand Polmaise over here either, and we are the 'same side of the pond' LOL!

    Okay, to answer Chris's question to me first: I am mainly involved in Field Trials here (that is my focus), but I also pick up on shoots and do a limited amount of game shooting over my own dogs in the season. Out of season, summer, I do the odd working test, just as a marker of how training is going and where we are at, and to give the dogs exposure on different ground under 'pressure' of competition.

    Heeling stick/sit stick - okay, it looks like a riding crop! I'm getting the picture. Not going to go there, and WRT 'fan belts', do cars still have these nowadays??.. Anyway, I don't think what you described with the fan belt thing is a training aid, but more something to inflict punishment on a wayward dog. Antiquated...

    Are you allowed to use a 'heeling stick' in competition too, or is it merely a training aid?

    Lining - as Polmaise said, over here, dog on the left and lined up with right arm/hand showing direction. No 'sweeping movement'. Pet hate of mine too. Arm should stay still steady, giving dog a good line/point of reference, and the voice is what sends the dog...

    Interesting to see the differences. All seem to work, and there are bits we can take from each other I am sure. That's why I am here - to improve my knowledge and learning...

    Thanks.

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