Yet another "Help me pick a training program" thread

[Beaker]

I know you get these a lot but here goes. I am hoping to make a more informed decision about what program to buy. I am looking at Smartworks, Lardy and Fowl Dog and Hillmann. My belief is the best program for me is the one I understand, have faith in and will stick to. I’ve seen all complimented here but want to learn a little more.


I’m trying to learn what kind of pressure these systems use and how they implement it. I’ve been reading threads and reviews. I understand the concept that Graham uses when teaching here, he has the dog turn off the pressure when he complies. Why not use the collar for the rest of the way? I think he uses ear pinch with fetch, a stick for sit and an open hand for hold.

As for Hillman I saw a preview of him teaching a dog to sit giving light nicks while the dog was complying. I can’t wrap my mind around this one at all. The thing I like about the collar is while I’m sure you must read a dog, there is more of a science to how much pressure then when pinching or using a stick. A trainer can actually say “I use model x on level 1”.

Have not found a lot on Lardy or Fowl Dog other than some nice recommendations.

A little about me and my dog. He’s my second dog, and will be my first going through a sequential program. I don’t intend to test, just want a well-mannered hunting partner. He is a 10 week old lab and I did just by Hillmann’s puppy DVD. I was thinking of Lardy’s articles as they would be more affordable. I don’t mind paying more but I’d like to feel more sure it’s the one for me.

[Rnd]

Beaker, This has the to potential to be a good thread.

If those that know each program would go over the "subtle" differences of each program.

As you mentioned, there are slight differences in technics.

For some insight on Lardys teachings and technics I might considered buying his 1st. set of notes to get a feel of how he does things before committing to DVD's.

Just a thought......Good luck

Randy

[Richard Moxley]

Interesting thread----- I may lurk in background to learn

[truthseeker]

Good luck, The last time I stuck my nick out on a thread like this.

I got skinned alive

[Rnd]

Good luck, The last time I stuck my nick out on a thread like this.

I got skinned alive

No matter how rough it get's around there's always a laugh to be had.....Your post mad me laugh..

Notice I didn't offer up any specifics.

It will most likely get trashed, but possibly the OP will get a nugget or two before then....

[Jon Couch]

Lardy, Smart works, and Fowl dogs are all Carr based methods. I have all three and they do all have little idiosyncrasies where they differ, but the base line of these training methods are all Carr based. I have Hillmans Puppy dvd and love his approach, but that is all I can really contribute on his methodology.

[Wayne Nutt]

Evan can answer for himself but he does use the ecollar thoughout his program. I follow Lardy. You can look at some of my videos: Hank (by Pirate) and Rowdy (by Pirate) to see examples of the things taught following Lardy.

Lardy uses the ecollar though out his program but certain functions, as in Smartworks, are best done the traditional manner and then introduce the ecollar once the dog understands. Like the force fetch process: first teach force hold, hold while doing ob, then force fetch using ear pinch or toe hitch. Then walking force fetch using ear pinch to reinforce, then stick fetch and then ecollar fetch. Of course, collar conditioning is done before ecollar fetch.
Some don't do it this way but I think most do.

Hope this helps.

[Ntblzjk719]

As for Hillman I saw a preview of him teaching a dog to sit giving light nicks while the dog was complying. I can’t wrap my mind around this one at all.

I don't want to derail this thread already, but I too have a hard time wrapping my head around this one. I watched the small preview clip as advertised on his website, which is I'm guessing what Beaker saw as well. If there is anyone who understands and can maybe explain that particular technique as seen? I handled a police K9 for several years, and if our Master Trainer caught us repeating or enforcing a command with which the dog was already complying, he would skin us alive! (thanks truthseeker) If you said it once, don't say it again unless the dog has changed behavior, otherwise the command loses its importance. (I draw the parrallel when you hear someone command "heel" to an already heeling dog 20 times between the holding blind and the line. Why keep repeating it if the dog's already complying?) Our master trainer would put it from the dog's point of view "Why does he keep telling me to sit/track/bark/sniff? I'm already sit/track/bark/sniffing! What the heck does he want from me, maybe I'll try something else?
I am definitely not downing Hillman, because I have heard nothing but positive reviews about his puppy program DVD and I have already decided that I will be purchasing it prior to starting my next dog. I also have not viewed the entire program as sampled from the above mentioned video, so maybe there's something I'm missing. I'm just hoping someone can enlighten me on this method.
Also as mentioned, I'm not trying to derail the thread, so feel free to pm me instead. Thanks in advance for input.

[Wayne Nutt]

Lardy, Smartworks and others are "force" based systems. You have to condition the dog to the force. Part of the force is a nick or burn with an ecollar. At first the conditioning requires a nick or burn for a command they know. Like sit or here. Then they learn how to turn off the force by immediately complying. Like sitting on a whistle at 200 yds. What would you do if your dog starts chasing a cat across a busy street? Even if he knows sit right next to you. Or in hunting situation getting into a dangerous area? Or failing to take a cast?

Nicking the dog for a command he doesn't know would not be fair to the dog. He wouldn't understand. I don't know anything about a master trainer for K-9 dogs and I'll bet he doesn't know anything about training retrievers.

The force is necessary to insure compliance under this conditions. There are lots of no-force trainers. I don't have any problem with them but I use the force based system.

I am sure there are lots of people that can explain this better than me. Hope this helps. I suspect part of the answer is that you don't know what you don't know. No disrespect intended. This is a very short answer and Lardy's Vol 1 of his Retriever Journal articles will do a much better and more thorough job of explaining. The book is only $25. And can be ordered from YBS media.

[Ntblzjk719]

Just to clarify: I totally understand and value the methods of a force based system such as any of the main ones described above. I was inquiring about the particular Hillman process about the dog receiving the nicks while complying with sit. I do understand the nicks such as the back-nick-back that occur while enroute to drive home the idea of forcing to go, but the constant over and over again nicks while saying sit to a dog that is already sitting just has me wondering where that gets you.