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Thread: Yet another "Help me pick a training program" thread

  1. #11
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    You don't get to the force back process by starting there. You have to go through a step by step process to get to the force back step. The nicking or burning on sit is the first step in that process.
    Wayne Nutt
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Lonnie Spann's Avatar
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    I like Smartworks and Lardy's TRT, I have Hillmas's Training a Retriever Puppy and I HATE it! I just can't get past that guitar solo in the background!

    Whichever one you choose stick with it and don't forget to 1) crawl, 2) walk, then, 3) run.

    Lonnie Spann

  3. #13
    Senior Member Jon Couch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaker View Post
    As for Hillman I saw a preview of him teaching a dog to sit giving light nicks while the dog was complying. I can’t wrap my mind around this one at all.
    Maybe this will help

    E-Collar Introduction Whether training companion, working, or sport dogs, we all want a happy and willing worker that responds quickly to direction at a distance under distraction. Your modern electronic training collar (e-collar) is a versatile training tool that can help you reach that goal. Your e-collar is a safe, reliable, and effective training tool. With it, you can make corrections suited to your dog’s temperament and the distraction level of the moment, at the proper time, for maximum training efficiency. However, correcting to stop unwanted behavior is only a small part of what you can do with your e-collar. More importantly, the e-collar is a powerful tool for encouraging.

    Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 4-9). . Kindle Edition.

    Before you can use your e-collar for teaching new behavior, you must suspend notions about the e-collar being only for correcting. Your dog must also learn from experience to act in response to the e-collar and that by his actions he can control the sensation of the e-collar, what we call the "e-tap". Once those two things happen, you can use the e-collar to teach and encourage desired responses and yes, to discourage or eliminate undesirable behavior.

    Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 10-13). . Kindle Edition.

    You will find this system of using the e-collar is even gentler than traditional leash training methods, offers increased reliability and, because the e-collar provides instant feedback to your dog, accelerates his learning.

    Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 13-14). . Kindle Edition.

    To teach a new action, begin tapping rapidly on the “momentary” button (at the lowest perceived intensity setting) as you guide your dog into the action you want. Stop tapping as your dog completes the action.

    Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 30-32). . Kindle Edition.
    Last edited by Jon Couch; 02-13-2013 at 05:43 PM.
    Jon Couch
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    http://duckcreekkennels.com

    "It's very important to constantly analyze what you are doing and whether your dogs are being good or bad because of what you are doing or in spite of what you are doing." Mike Lardy

  4. #14

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    "Lardy, Smart works, and Fowl dogs are all Carr based methods. I have all three and they do all have little idiosyncrasies where they differ, but the base line of these training methods are all Carr based. I have Hillmans Puppy dvd and love his approach, but that is all I can really contribute on his methodology."

    I would agree with this statement. You will get lots of opinions on this one .... and some of them very strongly held. What one individual sees as "little isiosyncrasies", someone else will see as a major and unacceptable difference. I mostly train alone but have participated in training groups enough to see truely outstanding dogs that were trained with both programs ... Lardy and Smartworks. So it isn't like one programs works and the other one does not. I was in your position around three years ago. I had trained several hunting labs over the years with a combination of books and advice from friends. Some dogs turned out better than others but I considered all to be well mannered gun dogs. I purchased a pup 3 years ago and decided I was going to take it as far as I could with a structured sequential program. I wound up purchasing the full Lardy and Smartworks programs ... along with a few others as well as a garage full of training equipment. I watched both the Lardy and Smartworks programs from start to finish more than once before I got very far into formal training. I concluded that there were no fundamental differences and many similarities. I wound up primarily using the Lardy program but I found myself often referring to the Smartworks program to help me better understand a particular part of the training .... or to watch another dog going through a particular piece of training to help me read my dog better. The key is to pick a program and stick with it .... and don't start switching programs or jumping around when you hit a snag. One thought would be to see what programs the training group in your area is using ... if you have one and intend to work with it at all. You are going to hit snags in the training. You are going to find yourself in situations where your dog is not responding like the dog in the video. So what is the problem ... is it you or the dog .... is it one of those situations where you need to maintain/increase the pressure or should you back off and try another day. You are not going to have experience with a hundred dogs to fall back on in those situations. Your local training group will be better able to help you if you are using a program they are familiar with. I had an absolute ball training my last dog. I started out a bit tentative ... concerned about ruining the dog. I generally took the approach of "when in doubt, don't hit the button". I gained confidence in my ability to read the dog over time and gradually became more aggressive. That said, I never had a firm timeline and advanced only when I was convinced that the dog and I were both ready. The dog turned out head and shoulders above any of the dogs I have had in the past.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Ideally the automatic nick or burn on sit will only last for one session. Provided the dog is stable and complying. The same with nick or burn on here. Then you will look for slow responses, lagging on here, etc.

    Sometimes with "wild thangs" I have to start with here rather than sit.
    Last edited by Wayne Nutt; 02-13-2013 at 05:37 PM.
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
    HRCH Clineline Hijacker "Jack"
    HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson"-retired
    Castile Creek's Rawhide, SH "Rowdy"

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Spann View Post
    I like Smartworks and Lardy's TRT, I have Hillmas's Training a Retriever Puppy and I HATE it! I just can't get past that guitar solo in the background!

    Whichever one you choose stick with it and don't forget to 1) crawl, 2) walk, then, 3) run.

    Lonnie Spann
    It is very important to pick a program based on sound tracks; if the music distracts or worse, grates then how can you possibly sit through the presentation long enough to learn from it!

    There is one otherwise very commendable program but it looses my endorsement because the back ground music would seem to have been hijacked from an elevator. Using music as the criteria for success in retriever training, who's program should one follow? And....if you could advise your favorite retriever guru, what music would you most like to have accompany them as they go through the mechanics of their training lessons?
    Last edited by blind ambition; 02-13-2013 at 05:43 PM.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthseeker View Post
    Good luck, The last time I stuck my nick out on a thread like this.

    I got skinned alive
    Then don't do it!
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  8. #18
    Senior Member truthseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Lynn Metras View Post
    Then don't do it!
    You bet!!

    I know now, do not touch the three legs of RTF'S holly grail.

  9. #19
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    To the OP here is an somewhat "alternative idea"

    Go and look up the best dog trainer that you know in your area, or that you can go meet...ask them if you can train with them....THEN ask them what "program" they use

    My guess would be that they dont use one, they may be familiar with one of the choices you listed, and in all fairness to Lardy, Graham , Stawski,et al; they all have tried and tested programs....but its not the program, its how well you can execute the concept and teach that to your dog...
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Jon Couch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    but its not the program, its how well you can execute the concept and teach that to your dog...
    Amen to that!
    Jon Couch
    Duck Creek Kennels
    Allegan, MI

    http://duckcreekkennels.com

    "It's very important to constantly analyze what you are doing and whether your dogs are being good or bad because of what you are doing or in spite of what you are doing." Mike Lardy

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