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Thread: Yet another "Help me pick a training program" thread

  1. #31
    Senior Member J_Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    You're correct in your assessment of pressure application as far as that assessment goes. But it stops far short of a full view. One of many benefits of seeing the whole system (anyone's) is that you have access to full explanations.

    All skills are passivley taught first before pressure enters the process. CC to "here" is only one facet of the overall formalization process. Indeed, all basic commands are e-collar conditioned in my program individually as the dog progresses through Basics. In conditioning we often begin with continuous, working up and down a pressure scale that is determined by reading the individual dog, and then transitioned to nicks toward the end. It is extremely rare for me to use continuous stimulation on a dog that is past Basics.

    I'll be happy to address any questions you have. Simly email to rushcreekpress@aol.com .

    Evan
    Evan, one thing that I've been wondering is why do you suggest CC'ing to "here" prior to the force fetching process, then CC'ing to all other OB commands after FF? If it's explained in your book, I apologize for not picking up on it. I'm just curious. It seems that some other programs include CC'ing to "here" after FF with the other OB commands.

  2. #32
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthseeker View Post
    Good luck, The last time I stuck my nick out on a thread like this.

    I got skinned alive
    I have seen the thread referenced, as well as the more recent occasion when you got involved in the conversation.

    I disagree.

    Guys and gals. One thing this forum should be is a retriever training forum. That's the name of it!

    One thing we should be able to discuss is training. A big part of today's training, especially for someone who is getting started is instructional materials.

    If you want to help, feel free to help. If you disagree and have a point that you feel is valid, go ahead and share. If someone does not disagree, don't decide you were "skinned alive", or that you touched the "holy grail".

    Popular instructional training programs are not a consipracy. Usually when something is popular, it is because folks gain value from it.

    If you don't gain value from what's popular, and have other ideas, go for it.

    Beaker, I'm in Central IL. If you want to talk live, feel free to call me in the evening.

    217-454-0361. I will share my own experience and ideas. I have never trained a titled field trial dog. I have trained several dogs to be somewhat respectable and had learned a lot. I will share what I can.

    That's why RTF is here...for us to share ideas and share value.

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  3. #33

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    Chris I am a newbie but very well stated !!!!
    WE should all know the definitionof opinion and the olfactory traits it brings

  4. #34
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Moxley View Post
    Chris I am a newbie but very well stated !!!!
    WE should all know the definitionof opinion and the olfactory traits it brings
    Thanks Richard and welcome to RTF! I did reply to your email the other day, but am not sure if you got it.

    You can also PM me here via the private message feature. Please read your private message.

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  5. #35
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Brown View Post
    Evan, one thing that I've been wondering is why do you suggest CC'ing to "here" prior to the force fetching process, then CC'ing to all other OB commands after FF? If it's explained in your book, I apologize for not picking up on it. I'm just curious. It seems that some other programs include CC'ing to "here" after FF with the other OB commands.
    it is, indeed, explained in the book. But I'm happy to answer. One answer is that I approach CC differently than most, inasmuch as I CC to specific individual commands, and that is done as the dog progresses from skill to skill.

    The reason for starting with "Here" has several aspects. I take advantage of our flexible modern e-collars and CC with pups as young as 4 months using very low levels of stimulus. You can run much more meaningful marks with a pup that isn't getting bogged down with distractions on the way home. Another reason is the simplest of commands; he always knows where you are, so it's easy to comply.

    All other standard obedience commands are conditioned as they are formalized over the course of formal Basics. It's not a matter of conflict between programs, so much as my philosophy governing CC is just different. You'll see that when you read the book, and/or watch the videos.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    ďPeople who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.Ē

    ― George Bernard Shaw


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  6. #36
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbr View Post
    Bert, thanks so much for posting that! I am a Hillman fan and used his puppy DVD for my now 2 year old. I just wish some of the others had come out in time along the way to guide me through the remainder of Basics! (for instance I heard about his force fetch vid just as pup was completing the process traditionally, worked fine though, thank ya very much Sharon!) But I have never seen this one. You guys that think he might be nagging on the repetition of the command need to watch it all the way through. Nagging would be if you are correcting the dog each time he moves. He shows explicitly why this would be the wrong thing to do. He mentioned several times that this is what he might do with a 4 or 5 year old dog that needed help. Well, LOL, I know of a nice 8 year old that is going to help me learn this part of the Hillman way!
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
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  7. #37
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    I have started many puppies and have had great success with the Hillmann Puppy video. Regarding the sit - nick concern: Mr. Hillmann is "reinforcing" a command (sit) before the puppy makes a mistake. The reinforcement is the "nick". The only way the pup will learn is repeat - repeat - repeat.
    Hope this helps.

  8. #38
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    One quick pointed question. Initially, does Lardy use continuous pressure that the dog turns off or does he start with nicks?

    Also, please pm if you’d rather not post. I have gotten some good info there too.

    Thanks to all.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    According to his videos, he has it on continuous but only does a half second to one second nick. If I remembered correctly.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  10. #40
    Senior Member thelast2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    According to his videos, he has it on continuous but only does a half second to one second nick. If I remembered correctly.
    Howard, has brought up something that many folks new to using the e-collar may not realize. For those that are using a tri-tronics collar and im sure that the other brands specs are about the same. A "nick" with the momentary button lasts for just under a second and a "long nick"(or burn as you will hear it refered to) with continous button averages about 8 seconds. Many trainers use the continous button holding the button down until they get the response they desire so any length from 0.5 to 8 seconds of stimulation can be given.
    Jesse

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