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Yet another "Help me pick a training program" thread

11K views 49 replies 27 participants last post by  Evan 
#1 ·
I know you get these a lot but here goes. I am hoping to make a more informed decision about what program to buy. I am looking at Smartworks, Lardy and Fowl Dog and Hillmann. My belief is the best program for me is the one I understand, have faith in and will stick to. I’ve seen all complimented here but want to learn a little more.


I’m trying to learn what kind of pressure these systems use and how they implement it. I’ve been reading threads and reviews. I understand the concept that Graham uses when teaching here, he has the dog turn off the pressure when he complies. Why not use the collar for the rest of the way? I think he uses ear pinch with fetch, a stick for sit and an open hand for hold.

As for Hillman I saw a preview of him teaching a dog to sit giving light nicks while the dog was complying. I can’t wrap my mind around this one at all. The thing I like about the collar is while I’m sure you must read a dog, there is more of a science to how much pressure then when pinching or using a stick. A trainer can actually say “I use model x on level 1”.

Have not found a lot on Lardy or Fowl Dog other than some nice recommendations.

A little about me and my dog. He’s my second dog, and will be my first going through a sequential program. I don’t intend to test, just want a well-mannered hunting partner. He is a 10 week old lab and I did just by Hillmann’s puppy DVD. I was thinking of Lardy’s articles as they would be more affordable. I don’t mind paying more but I’d like to feel more sure it’s the one for me.
 
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#2 ·
Beaker, This has the to potential to be a good thread.

If those that know each program would go over the "subtle" differences of each program.

As you mentioned, there are slight differences in technics.

For some insight on Lardys teachings and technics I might considered buying his 1st. set of notes to get a feel of how he does things before committing to DVD's.

Just a thought......Good luck

Randy
 
#5 ·
No matter how rough it get's around there's always a laugh to be had.....Your post mad me laugh..

Notice I didn't offer up any specifics. ;)

It will most likely get trashed, but possibly the OP will get a nugget or two before then....
 
#6 ·
Lardy, Smart works, and Fowl dogs are all Carr based methods. I have all three and they do all have little idiosyncrasies where they differ, but the base line of these training methods are all Carr based. I have Hillmans Puppy dvd and love his approach, but that is all I can really contribute on his methodology.
 
#7 ·
Evan can answer for himself but he does use the ecollar thoughout his program. I follow Lardy. You can look at some of my videos: Hank (by Pirate) and Rowdy (by Pirate) to see examples of the things taught following Lardy.

Lardy uses the ecollar though out his program but certain functions, as in Smartworks, are best done the traditional manner and then introduce the ecollar once the dog understands. Like the force fetch process: first teach force hold, hold while doing ob, then force fetch using ear pinch or toe hitch. Then walking force fetch using ear pinch to reinforce, then stick fetch and then ecollar fetch. Of course, collar conditioning is done before ecollar fetch.
Some don't do it this way but I think most do.

Hope this helps.
 
#8 ·
As for Hillman I saw a preview of him teaching a dog to sit giving light nicks while the dog was complying. I can’t wrap my mind around this one at all.
I don't want to derail this thread already, but I too have a hard time wrapping my head around this one. I watched the small preview clip as advertised on his website, which is I'm guessing what Beaker saw as well. If there is anyone who understands and can maybe explain that particular technique as seen? I handled a police K9 for several years, and if our Master Trainer caught us repeating or enforcing a command with which the dog was already complying, he would skin us alive! (thanks truthseeker) If you said it once, don't say it again unless the dog has changed behavior, otherwise the command loses its importance. (I draw the parrallel when you hear someone command "heel" to an already heeling dog 20 times between the holding blind and the line. Why keep repeating it if the dog's already complying?) Our master trainer would put it from the dog's point of view "Why does he keep telling me to sit/track/bark/sniff? I'm already sit/track/bark/sniffing! What the heck does he want from me, maybe I'll try something else?
I am definitely not downing Hillman, because I have heard nothing but positive reviews about his puppy program DVD and I have already decided that I will be purchasing it prior to starting my next dog. I also have not viewed the entire program as sampled from the above mentioned video, so maybe there's something I'm missing. I'm just hoping someone can enlighten me on this method.
Also as mentioned, I'm not trying to derail the thread, so feel free to pm me instead. Thanks in advance for input.
 
#28 ·
.... I handled a police K9 for several years, and if our Master Trainer caught us repeating or enforcing a command with which the dog was already complying, he would skin us alive! (thanks truthseeker) If you said it once, don't say it again unless the dog has changed behavior, otherwise the command loses its importance..
this is just like my early retriever mentors. more than one thump with the healing stick I got with the "Don't Nag Your Dog" added. I know not of this new way. I ask, wanting to learn. Is it still nagging, if you whisper?
 
#9 · (Edited)
Lardy, Smartworks and others are "force" based systems. You have to condition the dog to the force. Part of the force is a nick or burn with an ecollar. At first the conditioning requires a nick or burn for a command they know. Like sit or here. Then they learn how to turn off the force by immediately complying. Like sitting on a whistle at 200 yds. What would you do if your dog starts chasing a cat across a busy street? Even if he knows sit right next to you. Or in hunting situation getting into a dangerous area? Or failing to take a cast?

Nicking the dog for a command he doesn't know would not be fair to the dog. He wouldn't understand. I don't know anything about a master trainer for K-9 dogs and I'll bet he doesn't know anything about training retrievers.

The force is necessary to insure compliance under this conditions. There are lots of no-force trainers. I don't have any problem with them but I use the force based system.

I am sure there are lots of people that can explain this better than me. Hope this helps. I suspect part of the answer is that you don't know what you don't know. No disrespect intended. This is a very short answer and Lardy's Vol 1 of his Retriever Journal articles will do a much better and more thorough job of explaining. The book is only $25. And can be ordered from YBS media.
 
#10 ·
Just to clarify: I totally understand and value the methods of a force based system such as any of the main ones described above. I was inquiring about the particular Hillman process about the dog receiving the nicks while complying with sit. I do understand the nicks such as the back-nick-back that occur while enroute to drive home the idea of forcing to go, but the constant over and over again nicks while saying sit to a dog that is already sitting just has me wondering where that gets you.
 
#11 ·
You don't get to the force back process by starting there. You have to go through a step by step process to get to the force back step. The nicking or burning on sit is the first step in that process.
 
#12 ·
I like Smartworks and Lardy's TRT, I have Hillmas's Training a Retriever Puppy and I HATE it! I just can't get past that guitar solo in the background!

Whichever one you choose stick with it and don't forget to 1) crawl, 2) walk, then, 3) run.

Lonnie Spann
 
#16 · (Edited)
I like Smartworks and Lardy's TRT, I have Hillmas's Training a Retriever Puppy and I HATE it! I just can't get past that guitar solo in the background!

Whichever one you choose stick with it and don't forget to 1) crawl, 2) walk, then, 3) run.

Lonnie Spann
It is very important to pick a program based on sound tracks; if the music distracts or worse, grates then how can you possibly sit through the presentation long enough to learn from it!

There is one otherwise very commendable program but it looses my endorsement because the back ground music would seem to have been hijacked from an elevator. Using music as the criteria for success in retriever training, who's program should one follow? And....if you could advise your favorite retriever guru, what music would you most like to have accompany them as they go through the mechanics of their training lessons?
 
#13 · (Edited)
As for Hillman I saw a preview of him teaching a dog to sit giving light nicks while the dog was complying. I can’t wrap my mind around this one at all.
Maybe this will help

E-Collar Introduction Whether training companion, working, or sport dogs, we all want a happy and willing worker that responds quickly to direction at a distance under distraction. Your modern electronic training collar (e-collar) is a versatile training tool that can help you reach that goal. Your e-collar is a safe, reliable, and effective training tool. With it, you can make corrections suited to your dog’s temperament and the distraction level of the moment, at the proper time, for maximum training efficiency. However, correcting to stop unwanted behavior is only a small part of what you can do with your e-collar. More importantly, the e-collar is a powerful tool for encouraging.

Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 4-9). . Kindle Edition.

Before you can use your e-collar for teaching new behavior, you must suspend notions about the e-collar being only for correcting. Your dog must also learn from experience to act in response to the e-collar and that by his actions he can control the sensation of the e-collar, what we call the "e-tap". Once those two things happen, you can use the e-collar to teach and encourage desired responses and yes, to discourage or eliminate undesirable behavior.

Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 10-13). . Kindle Edition.

You will find this system of using the e-collar is even gentler than traditional leash training methods, offers increased reliability and, because the e-collar provides instant feedback to your dog, accelerates his learning.

Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 13-14). . Kindle Edition.

To teach a new action, begin tapping rapidly on the “momentary” button (at the lowest perceived intensity setting) as you guide your dog into the action you want. Stop tapping as your dog completes the action.

Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 30-32). . Kindle Edition.
 
#23 ·
Thanks for the insight. That does explain a lot. However, have you seen the clip I'm talking about? The dog is told to sit, and sits...minutes later after he sat, the trainer repeats "sit" nick "sit". This happens more than once. Obviously it's extremely low but even your quote is "as your dog is completing the action".
 
#14 ·
"Lardy, Smart works, and Fowl dogs are all Carr based methods. I have all three and they do all have little idiosyncrasies where they differ, but the base line of these training methods are all Carr based. I have Hillmans Puppy dvd and love his approach, but that is all I can really contribute on his methodology."

I would agree with this statement. You will get lots of opinions on this one .... and some of them very strongly held. What one individual sees as "little isiosyncrasies", someone else will see as a major and unacceptable difference. I mostly train alone but have participated in training groups enough to see truely outstanding dogs that were trained with both programs ... Lardy and Smartworks. So it isn't like one programs works and the other one does not. I was in your position around three years ago. I had trained several hunting labs over the years with a combination of books and advice from friends. Some dogs turned out better than others but I considered all to be well mannered gun dogs. I purchased a pup 3 years ago and decided I was going to take it as far as I could with a structured sequential program. I wound up purchasing the full Lardy and Smartworks programs ... along with a few others as well as a garage full of training equipment. I watched both the Lardy and Smartworks programs from start to finish more than once before I got very far into formal training. I concluded that there were no fundamental differences and many similarities. I wound up primarily using the Lardy program but I found myself often referring to the Smartworks program to help me better understand a particular part of the training .... or to watch another dog going through a particular piece of training to help me read my dog better. The key is to pick a program and stick with it .... and don't start switching programs or jumping around when you hit a snag. One thought would be to see what programs the training group in your area is using ... if you have one and intend to work with it at all. You are going to hit snags in the training. You are going to find yourself in situations where your dog is not responding like the dog in the video. So what is the problem ... is it you or the dog .... is it one of those situations where you need to maintain/increase the pressure or should you back off and try another day. You are not going to have experience with a hundred dogs to fall back on in those situations. Your local training group will be better able to help you if you are using a program they are familiar with. I had an absolute ball training my last dog. I started out a bit tentative ... concerned about ruining the dog. I generally took the approach of "when in doubt, don't hit the button". I gained confidence in my ability to read the dog over time and gradually became more aggressive. That said, I never had a firm timeline and advanced only when I was convinced that the dog and I were both ready. The dog turned out head and shoulders above any of the dogs I have had in the past.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Ideally the automatic nick or burn on sit will only last for one session. Provided the dog is stable and complying. The same with nick or burn on here. Then you will look for slow responses, lagging on here, etc.

Sometimes with "wild thangs" I have to start with here rather than sit.
 
#19 ·
To the OP here is an somewhat "alternative idea"

Go and look up the best dog trainer that you know in your area, or that you can go meet...ask them if you can train with them....THEN ask them what "program" they use

My guess would be that they dont use one, they may be familiar with one of the choices you listed, and in all fairness to Lardy, Graham , Stawski,et al; they all have tried and tested programs....but its not the program, its how well you can execute the concept and teach that to your dog...
 
#20 ·
#25 ·
I'm with some of you on the Hillman video....sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick.The whole time the dog is sitting. I do like some of his other stuff though.
I just got fowldawgs 1 and was not impressed. My biggest problem is it started out with a 5 or 6 month old pup. What did he do until that point? I've only "trained" 3 dogs but I had mine way past the point where he started training.I also didnt care for how rough is was with the dogs. I did learn some things in it so it wasn't a complete loss.
On to the next program for me.
 
#29 ·
To the OP... I was in your position several weeks ago, trying to decide which training program to go with. This is my first serious training venture, so I was adamant on getting a program of some kind. After searching through numerous threads on this same topic, I ended up purchasing a couple of the Smartwork books... Smartwork vol 1 and Smartfetch. Being a beginner, I trusted the reviews that said Smartwork was easier to comprehend for beginners, and they didn't steer me wrong. Mr. Graham's methodology is very easy to understand, IMO.

My dog is approaching 10 wks old now and we're off to a great start I think. She's a Pointing Lab, so I've also read Julie Knutson's book on training pointing labs. While I really like Julie's book, it does have a lot more "fluff" in it than Evan's material, and I find myself spending more time re-reading so that it'll sink in. My plan is to use Julie's methods for the pointing side of things, and use Evan's program for the retrieving work.

I've got no exposure to the Lardy or Hillman programs, but IMO you can't go wrong with the Smartwork programs. Plus, Mr. Graham is an active member of this forum, which will undoubtedly come in handy at some point for me... and anyone else utilizing his program.
 
#30 ·
I know you get these a lot but here goes. I am hoping to make a more informed decision about what program to buy. I am looking at Smartworks, Lardy and Fowl Dog and Hillmann. My belief is the best program for me is the one I understand, have faith in and will stick to. I’ve seen all complimented here but want to learn a little more.


I’m trying to learn what kind of pressure these systems use and how they implement it. I’ve been reading threads and reviews. I understand the concept that Graham uses when teaching here, he has the dog turn off the pressure when he complies. Why not use the collar for the rest of the way? I think he uses ear pinch with fetch, a stick for sit and an open hand for hold.
You're correct in your assessment of pressure application as far as that assessment goes. But it stops far short of a full view. One of many benefits of seeing the whole system (anyone's) is that you have access to full explanations.

All skills are passivley taught first before pressure enters the process. CC to "here" is only one facet of the overall formalization process. Indeed, all basic commands are e-collar conditioned in my program individually as the dog progresses through Basics. In conditioning we often begin with continuous, working up and down a pressure scale that is determined by reading the individual dog, and then transitioned to nicks toward the end. It is extremely rare for me to use continuous stimulation on a dog that is past Basics.

I'll be happy to address any questions you have. Simly email to rushcreekpress@aol.com .

Evan
 
#31 ·
You're correct in your assessment of pressure application as far as that assessment goes. But it stops far short of a full view. One of many benefits of seeing the whole system (anyone's) is that you have access to full explanations.

All skills are passivley taught first before pressure enters the process. CC to "here" is only one facet of the overall formalization process. Indeed, all basic commands are e-collar conditioned in my program individually as the dog progresses through Basics. In conditioning we often begin with continuous, working up and down a pressure scale that is determined by reading the individual dog, and then transitioned to nicks toward the end. It is extremely rare for me to use continuous stimulation on a dog that is past Basics.

I'll be happy to address any questions you have. Simly email to rushcreekpress@aol.com .

Evan
Evan, one thing that I've been wondering is why do you suggest CC'ing to "here" prior to the force fetching process, then CC'ing to all other OB commands after FF? If it's explained in your book, I apologize for not picking up on it. I'm just curious. It seems that some other programs include CC'ing to "here" after FF with the other OB commands.
 
#37 ·
I have started many puppies and have had great success with the Hillmann Puppy video. Regarding the sit - nick concern: Mr. Hillmann is "reinforcing" a command (sit) before the puppy makes a mistake. The reinforcement is the "nick". The only way the pup will learn is repeat - repeat - repeat.
Hope this helps.
 
#39 ·
According to his videos, he has it on continuous but only does a half second to one second nick. If I remembered correctly.
 
#40 ·
Howard, has brought up something that many folks new to using the e-collar may not realize. For those that are using a tri-tronics collar and im sure that the other brands specs are about the same. A "nick" with the momentary button lasts for just under a second and a "long nick"(or burn as you will hear it refered to) with continous button averages about 8 seconds. Many trainers use the continous button holding the button down until they get the response they desire so any length from 0.5 to 8 seconds of stimulation can be given.
 
#41 ·
Lardy collar conditions dogs in the continuous mode. But like Howard said, it is a very short burn, like "one thousand and one" for the duration. He might do a 1 1/2 in extreme cases. He warns against holding it down continuously until compliance is achieved, like for3-8 seconds. After that Lardy switches to the momentary mode for force to the pile, etc.

What Evan said is mostly true about the conditioning of dogs to here in other programs. However, Lardy advocates and early here conditioning if the dog is a wild child and doesn't want to return promptly. Of the last few dogs I have trained I did an early here conditioning for: Rowdy, Major and Briley. But didn't for: Hank, Scout and Cabbie Lou. I would guess that I am about 50/50 on this process.
Hope this helps.
 
#42 ·
No matter what program you decide to use it's better and easier to find someone to help you who knows what they're doing, reading your dog is crucial no matter what avenue you choose. Tapes and dvds can get you in trouble and you won't know how to dig yourself out of your hole. Buy them all, watch them all BUT past experience is priceless...Randy
 
#43 ·
New to the site and I"m currently training my first pup. My pup is turning 14 weeks tomorow. I've taught him the basic Sit, stay, come based off of the book "Water Dog" but he has really started bucking me recently acting like he has never heard these commands in his life, this for about a week now. I'm seeing a need to start on one of these training schedules simply because I'm discouraged and not sure where to turn. Great info here - hopefully I'm not too late on it!?
 
#45 ·
New to the site and I"m currently training my first pup. My pup is turning 14 weeks tomorow. I've taught him the basic Sit, stay, come based off of the book "Water Dog" but he has really started bucking me recently acting like he has never heard these commands in his life, this for about a week now. I'm seeing a need to start on one of these training schedules simply because I'm discouraged and not sure where to turn. Great info here - hopefully I'm not too late on it!?
You're not too late at all, but you're at a good point right now to reflect on what you've been doing.

There's a saying that I like sometimes for dog training. "If you keep doing what you've been doing, you're going to keep getting what you've been getting."

Old Richard Wolters was a neat man and lots of folks have trained some nice meat dogs using his books. (He actually wanted to call his book "Game Dog" "Meat Dog" but the publisher rejected it and made him change to a 2nd choice) But Richard's material is dated and there's some stuff that today, I won't do the way he advises.

If you are writing that your 14 week old is bucking you, because he's not doing 3 basic obedience commands offlead, then put him back on the lead. If he's doing it because he's distracted by new places, other dogs, and all sorts of other distractions, that's normal.

Expecting a 14 week old to be good at obedience commands is kind of like a parent expecting their toddler to be more responsible backing the BMW out of the garage. It's an unrealistic expectation for such an immature age.
 
#44 ·
Rome wasn't built in a day, don't expect a 14 week old puppy to be solid on even one command all the time or in a changed environment in such a short space of time...let alone be solid on three commands.
Repetition, repetition, then repeat again, then start over again in a new location, then teach with patience some more.
 
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