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Thread: Yet another "Help me pick a training program" thread

  1. #21
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthseeker View Post
    You bet!!

    I know now, do not touch the three legs of RTF'S holly grail.
    Hi Keith,

    Will you please do me a favor and PM me a link to the thread where you got "skinned alive"?

    Thanks, Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  2. #22
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Spann View Post
    I like Smartworks and Lardy's TRT, I have Hillmas's Training a Retriever Puppy and I HATE it! I just can't get past that guitar solo in the background!

    Whichever one you choose stick with it and don't forget to 1) crawl, 2) walk, then, 3) run.

    Lonnie Spann
    That's intersting. I loved that acoustic fingerpicking background music on Bill's DVD. I actually (when I get my copy back from my buddy) intend to try and track down who that is. I want to learn how to play it! Seriously!
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Couch View Post
    Maybe this will help

    E-Collar Introduction Whether training companion, working, or sport dogs, we all want a happy and willing worker that responds quickly to direction at a distance under distraction. Your modern electronic training collar (e-collar) is a versatile training tool that can help you reach that goal. Your e-collar is a safe, reliable, and effective training tool. With it, you can make corrections suited to your dogís temperament and the distraction level of the moment, at the proper time, for maximum training efficiency. However, correcting to stop unwanted behavior is only a small part of what you can do with your e-collar. More importantly, the e-collar is a powerful tool for encouraging.

    Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 4-9). . Kindle Edition.

    Before you can use your e-collar for teaching new behavior, you must suspend notions about the e-collar being only for correcting. Your dog must also learn from experience to act in response to the e-collar and that by his actions he can control the sensation of the e-collar, what we call the "e-tap". Once those two things happen, you can use the e-collar to teach and encourage desired responses and yes, to discourage or eliminate undesirable behavior.

    Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 10-13). . Kindle Edition.

    You will find this system of using the e-collar is even gentler than traditional leash training methods, offers increased reliability and, because the e-collar provides instant feedback to your dog, accelerates his learning.

    Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 13-14). . Kindle Edition.

    To teach a new action, begin tapping rapidly on the ďmomentaryĒ button (at the lowest perceived intensity setting) as you guide your dog into the action you want. Stop tapping as your dog completes the action.

    Nolan, Pat (2011-11-03). Companion Dog Obedience Training With Electronic Collars (Kindle Locations 30-32). . Kindle Edition.
    Thanks for the insight. That does explain a lot. However, have you seen the clip I'm talking about? The dog is told to sit, and sits...minutes later after he sat, the trainer repeats "sit" nick "sit". This happens more than once. Obviously it's extremely low but even your quote is "as your dog is completing the action".

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthseeker View Post
    Good luck, The last time I stuck my nick out on a thread like this.

    I got skinned alive
    I'm new here so I'm not sure what this is about...but I would love to hear your thoughts. So far this forum seems like the overall tone is better than most, a skinning would surprise me.

    If not I respect your silence and hope I'm not touching on something too serious or out of line.

  5. #25
    Senior Member grnhd's Avatar
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    I'm with some of you on the Hillman video....sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick,sit nick.The whole time the dog is sitting. I do like some of his other stuff though.
    I just got fowldawgs 1 and was not impressed. My biggest problem is it started out with a 5 or 6 month old pup. What did he do until that point? I've only "trained" 3 dogs but I had mine way past the point where he started training.I also didnt care for how rough is was with the dogs. I did learn some things in it so it wasn't a complete loss.
    On to the next program for me.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Jon Couch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaker View Post
    Thanks for the insight. That does explain a lot. However, have you seen the clip I'm talking about? The dog is told to sit, and sits...minutes later after he sat, the trainer repeats "sit" nick "sit". This happens more than once. Obviously it's extremely low but even your quote is "as your dog is completing the action".
    I tried to find the clip you referenced, but was unable to find it. That being said with the information I had I though it sounded like this type of introduction, but It seem I may have been wrong. Do you have a link to the clip?
    Jon Couch
    Duck Creek Kennels
    Allegan, MI

    http://duckcreekkennels.com

    "It's very important to constantly analyze what you are doing and whether your dogs are being good or bad because of what you are doing or in spite of what you are doing." Mike Lardy

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Couch View Post
    I tried to find the clip you referenced, but was unable to find it. That being said with the information I had I though it sounded like this type of introduction, but It seem I may have been wrong. Do you have a link to the clip?
    This one?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mz8o...ayer_embedded#!
    Bert Rodgers

  8. #28
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntblzjk719 View Post
    .... I handled a police K9 for several years, and if our Master Trainer caught us repeating or enforcing a command with which the dog was already complying, he would skin us alive! (thanks truthseeker) If you said it once, don't say it again unless the dog has changed behavior, otherwise the command loses its importance..
    this is just like my early retriever mentors. more than one thump with the healing stick I got with the "Don't Nag Your Dog" added. I know not of this new way. I ask, wanting to learn. Is it still nagging, if you whisper?
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

    "The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

  9. #29
    Senior Member J_Brown's Avatar
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    To the OP... I was in your position several weeks ago, trying to decide which training program to go with. This is my first serious training venture, so I was adamant on getting a program of some kind. After searching through numerous threads on this same topic, I ended up purchasing a couple of the Smartwork books... Smartwork vol 1 and Smartfetch. Being a beginner, I trusted the reviews that said Smartwork was easier to comprehend for beginners, and they didn't steer me wrong. Mr. Graham's methodology is very easy to understand, IMO.

    My dog is approaching 10 wks old now and we're off to a great start I think. She's a Pointing Lab, so I've also read Julie Knutson's book on training pointing labs. While I really like Julie's book, it does have a lot more "fluff" in it than Evan's material, and I find myself spending more time re-reading so that it'll sink in. My plan is to use Julie's methods for the pointing side of things, and use Evan's program for the retrieving work.

    I've got no exposure to the Lardy or Hillman programs, but IMO you can't go wrong with the Smartwork programs. Plus, Mr. Graham is an active member of this forum, which will undoubtedly come in handy at some point for me... and anyone else utilizing his program.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaker View Post
    I know you get these a lot but here goes. I am hoping to make a more informed decision about what program to buy. I am looking at Smartworks, Lardy and Fowl Dog and Hillmann. My belief is the best program for me is the one I understand, have faith in and will stick to. Iíve seen all complimented here but want to learn a little more.


    Iím trying to learn what kind of pressure these systems use and how they implement it. Iíve been reading threads and reviews. I understand the concept that Graham uses when teaching here, he has the dog turn off the pressure when he complies. Why not use the collar for the rest of the way? I think he uses ear pinch with fetch, a stick for sit and an open hand for hold.
    You're correct in your assessment of pressure application as far as that assessment goes. But it stops far short of a full view. One of many benefits of seeing the whole system (anyone's) is that you have access to full explanations.

    All skills are passivley taught first before pressure enters the process. CC to "here" is only one facet of the overall formalization process. Indeed, all basic commands are e-collar conditioned in my program individually as the dog progresses through Basics. In conditioning we often begin with continuous, working up and down a pressure scale that is determined by reading the individual dog, and then transitioned to nicks toward the end. It is extremely rare for me to use continuous stimulation on a dog that is past Basics.

    I'll be happy to address any questions you have. Simly email to rushcreekpress@aol.com .

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    ďPeople who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.Ē

    ― George Bernard Shaw


    The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
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