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Dog blinking memory bird

8K views 33 replies 17 participants last post by  Wayne Nutt 
#1 ·
I have a HRCH almost 3yrs old who recently started turning her head for a split second on the memory bird we do lots of singles so its not like she's prone to head swinging on marks. On singles she will concentrate on the bird all the way to the ground but on multiples she will blink it for a second thus missing the area of fall. Any advice on how to fix this problem would be nicely appreciated
 
#2 ·
First, the correct terminology is not blinking, it is head swinging. Blinking is when the dog finds the bird, but refuses to pick it up. Head swing happens at your side and is a product of incorrect handling on multiple marks. The best way to fix it is to do a LOT of single marks off multiple guns with a pinch collar and a short lead on the dog.
Throw the mark and wait. When the dog shifts attention to a different gun just tug him back to the original mark with the pinch collar. Repeat until the dog stays focused on the first throw for 15 to 30 seconds.
You should probably also go back to the wagon wheel exercise and watch the dog very closely because he is probably head or eye swinging there and you have not noticed.
NOTE- This is a poor place for an e collar correction because the dog needs guidance, not just corrections.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Lynn,
Yes, use a pinch collar & tab but do NOT use it to Tug dog back into position. Instead, talk to the dog NO, Here (or heel), and when he looks back, Good, Watch and make him stare it down for x seconds. You may need to correct for sit with the pinch collar but don't use it to correct the headswing or try to pull dog with it.
When you train with a tab it's simply a way of maintaining a connection to the dog, most of the time. It's best to communicate with the dog via the pinch collar with gentle barely perceptible tightening of the tabs slack, not tugging and let the dog move in compliance with your voice command. Of course if you need to correct with a pinch that's a different animal.
For head swinging use a stick or low nicks to bring them back.
 
#3 ·
Well sorry for wrong terminology. We do way more singles than multiples in a given week. The problem as my training partner also noticed is that after the bird is thrown so will look at it then just turn her head before it hits the ground. It's like she loses interest. I was thinking of throwing live bird to get her very excited about it and see if she still turns her head. It's not always she does it but its agrivating when she does. While duck hunting this past season she was very focused and didn't do it. Any suggestions
 
#5 ·
Wondering why you haven't got more responses to your quandary. The traditional way (OK, one of the traditional ways) to address headswinging is send the dog for the mark that she's looked off of the instant her head swings - then either make a correction if she goes astray or let her get the bird if she's marked it. (And let the subconscious notion percolate that she could be sent for any bird, any time, so she'd better pay attention to all of them.)

Another way of taking on headswinging is to have the memory gun station or stations give a good "hey-hey!" before throwing and shooting their birds. That at least gets the dog's attention temporarily because it's something unnatural coming from the field.

But please define "loses interest" - if the dog comes up with the memory bird without a hunt she must've marked it, right? so I wouldn't fret about any loss of interest. Or is the loss of interest manifesting itself by her no-going on the last bird, or going but getting nowhere in the vicinity of the mark?

Also, you said memory bird, not birds - and your dog's earned an HRCH title which requires triples. Is the dog head swinging on both memory birds or "a" memory bird that may be the longest mark/pinched with another mark/anything that involves a flyer?

MG
 
#4 ·
I agree with Lynn: "a LOT of single marks off multiple guns with a pinch collar and a short lead on the dog.
Throw the mark and wait. When the dog shifts attention to a different gun just tug him back to the original mark with the pinch collar. Repeat until the dog stays focused on the first throw for 15 to 30 seconds." The big thing is to delay the send and direct your dog to maintain focus on the mark before sending.
 
#6 ·
There are many ways to address Head Swinging, which is what you have.
First, take your time. You need to do some yard work than transfer to field.

In the yard with dog at heel handler hand throws a bumper out about 20 yds, your helper stands 20 yds off to the side and starts swinging a white bumper while you then work on keeping dog looking at hand tossed, when the dog looks over correct with a tap on the ass, say no, here, mark. If the dog behaves he picks up the hand thrown bumper. Have the helper switch sides and repeat it again.
Once they figure it out with one helper try 2 helpers one on each side of the handler at 9 o clock and 3 o clock positions swinging bumpers as you throw the hand tossed bumper. Once they understand what not to do move your helpers forward several yards so they are in view of the dog making it more tempting to swing.
After they get that down pat use a live flapping, quacking duck. This will ramp up the excitement for the handler and the dog.
In the field reinforce what they have learned in the yard with the crop correction.
In the field you can also have your gunners help by throwing multiple bumpers from one station. shoot throw, shoot throw, shoot throw.
Next, for sure, set up a triple in pyramid configuration with the flyer long and only pick up the long flyer, never the short birds for weeks. They start to come out of the blind looking for the long gun and usually don't bother with the short ones anymore.
There is more you can do but this should help a lot.
 
#7 ·
I have a head swinger, so I'm following this thread, too.

Mine usually is obsessed with one of the gunners, usually but not always the closest one...I suspect she suspects it is the one with the flyer! I have a hard time getting her to not look at it and focus on the rest of the gunners.

I'm curious about the pinch collar correction. Say dog is heeling on my left. Say there are two marks, the memory bird is on the left and the go bird on the right. So dog sees memory bird start to launch and then swings head to the right to the go bird. The correction then is to reach over the dogs head and yank her back to the memory bird? Reaching over the dog's head seems like a bad idea, but it works? Or am I misunderstanding something?
 
#9 ·
I don't know if you would call it headswinging or not. It's not that she's looking for another bird, or at least I think, she just turns her head away for a split second and then returns to fall area but by that time duck is on the ground. Sometimes she does it and sometimes she doesn't. What's frustrating is that when she stays concentrated on the marks she steps on them. I guess I should call it lack of concentration on all birds. She never no goes because she does see it and goes fir the mark but its just she's not sure and has to put on a big hunt most of the time leaving AOF. We do slot if singles where I make her stay focused for 10-15 seconds on the mark before I send her. Thsrs if she didn't turn her head first. Any little distraction also makes her look away
 
#23 ·
Is this typically the first bird thrown in a multi-gun setup? Does your dog turn away even on single marks with only one gun out in the field? If so I would do the opposite of what you are doing. I would put one gun out there but short enough so that the angle to the bird is fairly wide. You might even throw small bumpers so that a square throw lands a long way from the gun, in other words, if the dog follows the bumper to the ground the gunner is well out of his line of sight. I would watch my dog's head while listening for the bumper to hit the ground. If the dog watches it all the way to the ground I would send her immeadiately.

The purpose of this it to get the dog focused on the bird, through the arc and to the ground, then be rewarded with the retrieve, rather than sweat her out by making her sit for ten-fifteen seconds. If she doesn't follow the mark all the way to the ground, don't let her retrieve it. Have your gunner walk out and pick it up with her watching, then repeat. What do you think she is looking for when she turns her head away for a split second? BTW it must be more than a split second as the throw will be in the air for two or three seconds.

Like Howard said, it's hard for us to divine these things over the internet, I wish I was there to see it in person.

John
 
#13 ·
Not usually. Like so many behaviors, it's tied to expectations. A dog may start this because a handler is robotically slow in their sending cadence, or they pause too long in some other aspect before sending. The dogs develop the expectation of that timing, and their focus on individual marks erodes because of what they expect to come next. That's only one example, but it's common.

Kind of a two-edge sword because we teach handlers to slow down often because so many of them do nearly everything too fast. It's basically a result of the training being out of balance. Too slow too often, or too fast too often; each tend to produce unwanted side effects. It's much like handlers who absolutely have to go through their own stylized ritual on line; same moves, same timing, time after time, and they wonder why the dog's focus erodes.

Mix it up. Stay balanced. Do some no-hands sends now and then, for example.

Evan
 
#11 ·
Is it possible to post a video of this behavior? It may shorten the thread and eliminate any confusion on terminology. You can also get a more precise answer to your problem.
 
#14 ·
Here is something else you can do. Refer to pic.
You need 3 chairs with white coats, 1 birdboy, bag o' bumpers.
Start birdboy at chair #1, Have dog watch, throw bumper and THEN make dog watch fall area WHILE birdboy slowly walks away to chair # 2.
When dog is able to watch #1 fall for a good 10 seconds WITHOUT looking over to birdboy walking, send to retrieve #1.
Repeat with Chair # 2 and have birdboy walk to chair #3.
If dog dogs does a good job let them have mark #3.
.
.
Green Slope Line Grass Land lot
 
#15 ·
The problem as my training partner also noticed is that after the bird is thrown so will look at it then just turn her head before it hits the ground.
Evan, are you sure you would tell someone to speed up with the above problem? I think I'd rather go to redirecting the dog's attention to the fall and then releasing when I saw the dog's attention was firmly on the fall area. Maybe one or two seconds of focus time to make sure the dog's attention is really at the fall area before the release.

Ain't internet training fun? We've gone from blinking, to head swinging, to maybe bugging all on the same problem. Lord knows what I would really call it if I saw it in real life.
 
#18 ·
Evan, are you sure you would tell someone to speed up with the above problem?
If the owner agreed with my assessment, and it's not a bugging or another attitude problem, I sure would. I've solved it that way with many dogs. Change the expectations and you change the behavior.

Evan
 
#16 ·
The old eye-blink head swing bug problems comes up around here and generates a lot of advice on a regular basis. Rarely does anyone agree on the Rx.
 
#17 ·
Yup.

Another thing I might do is shorten up the marks until the dog is more confident on what I expect her to do.
 
#21 ·
That's pretty rude for someone asking advice. Howard made some very good points and I sure didn't see anything smarta** about his answers.
 
#22 ·
Don't think Howard was trying to be a SA - from where I'm "listening" he was implying the problem involves a little of everything he (and others have) cited. Which may mean there's not a quick fix by way of what's been advised, and that he really would like to see how it transpires before advising further. Or maybe I'm mis-Internet-terpreting.

MG
 
#28 ·
If dog is doing what John described vs head swinging I would try what he described and put my suggestion in your back pocket for another day.
 
#29 ·
I didn't think I was being an wise ass either.

You have gotten several good pieces of advice for head swinging. What if your dog is not head swinging but rather bugging? ie. Something has confused her about what she should be doing? You know she likes retrieving but a disconnect about what to do has somehow crept into her head when a mark is thrown. These often are sensitive dogs, it can happen. Sending fast with a confused dog may not be the best course of action.

None of us are really sure what is going on, so you have to read your dog and decide what is going on inside her head and work to correct it.
 
#30 ·
Maybe I took Howard's statement about Internet training the wrong way but I have gotten answers on other questions that that were and I thought he was going there. I don't need help that's bad so maybe I jumped the gun. Shell shocked!!thanks for all y'all input to my problem being that I'm not a pro trainer just a guy trying to have fun with my dog. Ill try to explain my problems a little better next time. Howard I have used some of your answers in the past so thanks.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Maybe I took Howard's statement about Internet training the wrong way but I have gotten answers on other questions that that were and I thought he was going there. I don't need help that's bad so maybe I jumped the gun. Shell shocked!!thanks for all y'all input to my problem being that I'm not a pro trainer just a guy trying to have fun with my dog. Ill try to explain my problems a little better next time. Howard I have used some of your answers in the past so thanks.
Not your fault, it's just the nature of the internet and the complexities of dog training. This is the main reason I rarely post training advise. Number one it takes years of experience and having good dog sense in order to read a dog, #2, it is almost impossible to do so over the internet. No offence, but if you were able to read your dog at a high level you probably would be answering the question, not asking it. That said, I believe this has been one of the better threads in that regard. It used to drive me nuts when people with just enough experience to get in trouble would answer a training question with a training tip as if it were black and white gospel, when by reading the dog differently that advise could ruin the dog. The thoughts and ideas you have recieved have all been thoughtful and correct, it is up to you to try and read what is motovating your dog's behavor and act accordingly.

John
 
#31 ·
And yes she does get distracted very easily on the line. If a bird flies or someone makes a noise she will look. That's why I was thinking of mixing up live birds with dead ones on her marks so she doesn't know which one is flier and which one is a dead one. She is very intense with live birds
 
#34 ·
Cajun, Howard is the least smart alec person on RTF. One way you could help is do a video of the dog doing the headswing or whatever. Then everyone could see the issue and give you better help, maybe. At least everyone would be on the same page as to what the problem is.
 
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