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Thread: "Cigaring" Bumpers In Force Fetch. How To Fix ?

  1. #31
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    I believe anytime a young pup does something right naturally, you as the trainer have a leg up in training him, over the dog that doesn't. That doesn't mean you don't reinforce the skill through training, it's just easier if the pup is already doing it right. For example my latest pup naturally, from age seven weeks, ran right out, picked up an object or bird, and ran right back to me. That just gave me a leg up over the pup who runs out there picks up the object and plays "keep-away". We all know there is going to be a lot more training ahead for the pup, just one thing that might be easier than otherwise.

  2. #32
    Senior Member FOM's Avatar
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    Alright guys and gals - stay on topic and stop the mud slinging! You know who you are.

    FOM
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  3. #33
    Junior Member stkpointers's Avatar
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    Thank you everyone, sorry I had to be away from the thread for a while but I got several great tips from this. Somewhere I do have a wooden bumper with little dowels around the end, I'll dig that out. I've only done force fetch on one other dog (I'm just wading into amateur dog training) and he never tried to cigar. But this little girl (who is also going 90 mph everywhere she goes) is a handful. I do always immediately remove (or move) the bumper and make her hold it correctly which she does willingly. However if I give her any slack and don't watch her like a hawk she immediately works her way down to the end. I understand force fetch involves lots of patience and doing things correctly so we'll just keep at it. Thanks again !
    Steve and Julie Moore
    Shade Tree Kennels
    La Center, WA

    Who Says Labs Can't Point?

  4. #34
    Senior Member Pupknuckle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    In various obnoxious ways, that's pretty much all you ever say whether it has any relevance to helping anyone or not...usually not.Whereas you're perched in the dark recesses of the net eager to offer slime like this. Thanks for the helpful hint.

    Evan
    Evan Thanks for your input on this forum, Please do not get offended and drop off. Your advice has been very helpful in the past to me and I am sure it will be in the future.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member savage25xtreme's Avatar
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    I take care of it in FF much like others suggest. 4" to 2" PVC reducer on 1 end. With the reducer on 1 end it also teaches a firm hold. Its not a fight with the right equipment, the dog has no other choice but pick it up correctly. During FTP and T work if they bring one in cigared I just reposition and say hold. Repeat offenses gets the bumper knocked out and fetch command. Easy as that, couldn't imagine doing it any other way.
    Gavin B.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Duckquilizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    Im sometimes amazed by what I read on the internet also.
    Training is not a fight; it is an opportunity to teach the dog skills that it will need in real life hunting, trialing situations
    My experience like others have stated, is that this is a fight that doesn't need to be fought. I have NEVER seen a dog cigar a bird
    .
    I don't use a video camera, but you obviously do Evan, as evidenced by your many you tube videos. So I'll make you a deal you put up a youtube video of a dog cigarring a bird and I'll address & fix that problem for you.

    As to your quote "WHY NOT JUST TRAIN" I would say that is advice you should take to heart.

    As opposed to sitting in front of your computer all day long sub liminally pimping your products on every available dog website known to man, why dont you get out and follow your above quote.?
    Actual hands on training is the only way you can stay abreast of advances in dog training & where you learn what does and doesn't work with dogs.
    You owe it to the people who actually succumb to your promotional assault and buy your products, to stay current and be competent in what you promote
    Step out from behind your computer and step up to the line. Im guessing youll have a good time and get some fresh air
    Call copterdoc up to train with you; Im thinking you could both use some fresh air
    Good Luck & Good Training
    This was very uncalled for. Evan is excellent to answer questions and I do not EVER see him saying to "Buy my slime". Worry about your own answers... I disagree with the idea on cigar holds completely. Its not worth the time to me, because to me, they do figure it out just fine. I am NOT suggesting to lower standards on dropping, but cigar holds are just not worth spending a lot of time on. Now there are times when mouth problems exsist, like mouthing or dropping, thats a whole other ballgame...
    Last edited by Duckquilizer; 03-01-2013 at 08:40 AM.
    Kendall Layne

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  7. #37
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pupknuckle View Post
    Evan Thanks for your input on this forum, Please do not get offended and drop off. Your advice has been very helpful in the past to me and I am sure it will be in the future.
    Thanks, I'm not likely to allow someone like that to affect what I do. I'm glad to help anytime I can.
    Quote Originally Posted by savage25xtreme View Post
    I take care of it in FF much like others suggest. 4" to 2" PVC reducer on 1 end. With the reducer on 1 end it also teaches a firm hold. Its not a fight with the right equipment, the dog has no other choice but pick it up correctly. During FTP and T work if they bring one in cigared I just reposition and say hold. Repeat offenses gets the bumper knocked out and fetch command. Easy as that, couldn't imagine doing it any other way.
    I agree. That's when I take care of it, so it doesn't become a big issue. It just has no chance of becoming one when we don't ignore it from the start of FF.

    It should be mentioned that "Cigar hold" is not a specific term, inasmuch as different dogs do it to different degrees. Some are only slightly inclined toward some slop about carrying things. Others are profoundly loose mouthed, and require a much firmer, more consistent application of corrections over more time to assure sound habits. Just because some dogs get over it on their own does not translate into all dogs solving it. Each one is different (big news flash!).

    Evan
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  8. #38
    Junior Member stkpointers's Avatar
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    I also thank you Evan, for your input and training advice. I have learned a great deal from your YouTube video's and appreciate the fact that I can go on line before going out to train or come in after and see how someone else does whatever concept I'm trying to work on. Extremely beneficial for me as much as the dog. I train alone 99% of the time so having a video to watch because I don't have someone to show me tips, issues, etc. is much appreciated.
    Steve and Julie Moore
    Shade Tree Kennels
    La Center, WA

    Who Says Labs Can't Point?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckquilizer View Post
    This was very uncalled for. Evan is excellent to answer questions and I do not EVER see him saying to "Buy my slime". Worry about your own answers... I disagree with the idea on cigar holds completely. Its not worth the time to me, because to me, they do figure it out just fine. I am NOT suggesting to lower standards on dropping, but cigar holds are just not worth spending a lot of time on. Now there are times when mouth problems exsist, like mouthing or dropping, thats a whole other ballgame...
    Kendall please tell what you think is inaccurate or " very uncalled for". Is it the fact that someone used the word SLIME that bothers you?

    I would agree that describing someone or something as "SLIME"is insulting and disgusting. However it wasn't me that used that disgusting, slanderous term. It was Evan. He tends to get that way anytime someone disagrees with him or points out some truths that he doesn't want potential customers to know about.

    Im also confused by the context of the rest of your post. You state that I should worry about my own answers.. Then you spend the rest of your post seemingly arguing in favor of the premise that having a battle with the dog over cigar holds wasn't worth your time.
    That is essentially the answer I gave. So which answer is it that you think I should worry about?

    Congrats on your JH title, and good luck to you and your dogs in the future.

  10. #40
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Hey guys....

    An RTF moderator has already asked you guys to knock it off. A couple of you have chosen not to knock it off. I'm here to back the moderator. Knock it off. If you want to argue about the side topic, please take it private.

    Regarding cigar hold, here is my own personal thought. Dog training is as much art as it is science. The chemistry between dog and trainer is a unique combination. To me personally, a cigar hold is not attractive to me when my dog is doing it. To me personally, I will spend a little extra time trying to cure the cigar hold. I believe that for some dogs, this can become a gray area. Some dogs seem, to me, to be more "mouth aware" than others. Black and white is whether they are carrying the bumper or dropping it. Gray is if they are not dropping it, and they're carrying it, but they're a little loose and they wind up holding the bumper by the end.

    It's personal preference.

    If one chooses to "cure" a cigar hold during FF, my opinion is that it takes some finnesse to get it right. If I had a dog with poor mouth awareness, who showed lots of promise on other areas, I may choose to move ahead and focus on the bigger picture. I personally would probably spend some time trying to create better mouth awareness first, and try to cure the hold that to me, is not attractive, before I chose to move ahead.

    I do agree with Pete, Marc and others that in the end, it probably is not that big a deal and probably does work itself out in many cases.

    Here's a trick I learned from our own /paul - Gundog. It's a good one. I call it "hammer fetch". Hammer fetch is the idea of using a mini-sledge hammer or other object that is highly unbalanced. Merely grabbing the 12 inch handle at the 6 inch point does not lead to a good hold. I have found it to help create mouth awareness without my having to get overly involved. I can keep the session black and white, as the goal is to carry and not drop. IF the dog has loose mouth habits and tries to bobble the object, it is likely to fall. Then we can work on correcting the drop and getting a more solid hold.

    Again guys, knock off the bickering please. When a moderator asks for help, I ask that you pitch in. Don't disrespect her, and don't challenge her.

    Thanks, Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

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