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"Cigaring" Bumpers In Force Fetch. How To Fix ?

15K views 39 replies 22 participants last post by  Chris Atkinson 
#1 ·
Am working through force fetch with a 10 month old female. She's got the concept down great, lunges for the bumper when I say fetch and is a very willing student but promptly works the bumper around to hold by the end. I don't dare have a rope tied to it or she'll hold the rope, only use a plain bumper so we don't have that issue too. We've been working daily for 3 weeks on proper mouth placement and she continues to do it. If I remove the bumper and put it back in properly she'll hold by the middle as long as I ask. Should I be concerned? Just continue gritting it out with her? Suggestions?
 
#3 ·
You can gently take the bumper from her and place it back in her mouth properly telling her to hold, if she starts mouthing it around to try and get it by the end again just a light tap on the bottom jaw with your hand and repeat the hold command. Also might look into making or buying a training buck ( mine is a piece of a coat rod out of a closet with a couple of pieces of 2 x 4 screwed to the end) teaches the dog to grab by the center rather than the end.
 
#4 ·
I'm assuming that the bumper is being picked up off the floor and thats where you are running into the issue so disregard if I am incorrect. My pup did something similar. What I did wan while the "Fetch" Command was given I put hand over the end of the bumper so the pup couldn't grab it. Then lots of praise for holding the correct way. No praise and repeat for an incorrect hold. Good Luck! Hope this helps.
 
#5 ·
This is the time to work on such things because you're building the standards for your dog's mouth habits. Altered bumpers can be a help because that's part of habit formation; a dumbell-shaped object helps preclude holding poorly. But correcting it shows the dog what you want. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd72kl9lZlc

Evan
 
#20 ·
I use a obedience dumbell during Ff and it usually takes care of the problem down the road,. Others have made suggestions, all good for the present. It is annoying, but, not a big deal at this stage of your training in my opinion.
You don't want a lot of excess baggage with pressure ,other pressures. If the dog isn't shopping on the pile, maybe throw a bumper or two and gently put the correct hold on the finish with the retrieve? Do this in a different spot before you start pile work. Also, maybe try a correct hold it command and heel the dog around a bit on lead. There is no magic dust to throw on the dog at this stage of the game, be creative. Good luck, keep asking questions and if the hole gets too deep quit digging until you get some advice. If you intend to use the e collar program Ff is the foundation of the entire program and will follow your dog through it's entire. One thing be careful with the tender gals.
 
#6 ·
My son just put his dog through force-fetch about a month ago. She too cigared some of the bumpers and whenever she would he would just correct her grip and say "hold", followed by lots of praise. Have you tried the FF with birds yet? I've never seen a dog cigar a bird.

Lonnie Spann
 
#8 ·


If that's okay with you, that's fine by me. But in my experience this behavior reflects an overall poor attitude about mouth habits, and is often accompanied by digressive acts like frequent drops, poor delivery, etc.

A suggestion made earlier about how to alter a bumper during FF is one I like, and can be used with paint rollers also. (Thanks Jim!)



Evan
 
#10 · (Edited)
Many will. Some won't, including this one.



Some are chronic about a loose mouth on game and other objects because the training wasn't adequately done. Why not do the training? In my own training we're not done with FTP until we've forced on real birds, and cleaned up any issues like this. It takes very little time and effort. I suppose it's too much trouble if you don't enjoy training.

Each year I look back on some of the training questions I get by email and in other ways. There are always several about loose mouths, poor delivery, and cigaring. It's just FF unfinished. My advice is consistenly to finish the job.

Evan
 
#12 ·
#18 ·
So back to questions about "cigarring." At what point do you consider it to be an issue? Example: my 10 month old YLF is currently working on wrapping up the intro/teaching to casting before we re-in"force" it and then start T and TT work. She had a harder time than what I would consider normal with "hold" and then we went through FF without any issues. During FTP, she was cigarring almost every bumper. I went back and spent more time and focus on FF and changed to larger bumpers. Cigarring disappeared. Now during the intro to casting, she randomly cigars a bumper, or cigars a bumper then as she approaches me repositions and comes in to finishing position. If she comes back with the bumper improperly placed or fails to finish cleanly (comes in and heels on my left and sits holding the bumper) then I take the bumper from her and command fetch (correction nick if she hesitates).
Am I to the point I should expect 100% perfect holds? She nails marks and does not have an issue, it rears its head on FTP and yard T work. I think the next step may be to alter the bumpers to allow for only a good center hold (PVC end caps etc).
Thoughts?
 
#25 ·
So back to questions about "cigarring." At what point do you consider it to be an issue? Example: my 10 month old YLF is currently working on wrapping up the intro/teaching to casting before we re-in"force" it and then start T and TT work. She had a harder time than what I would consider normal with "hold" and then we went through FF without any issues. During FTP, she was cigarring almost every bumper. I went back and spent more time and focus on FF and changed to larger bumpers. Cigarring disappeared. Now during the intro to casting, she randomly cigars a bumper, or cigars a bumper then as she approaches me repositions and comes in to finishing position. If she comes back with the bumper improperly placed or fails to finish cleanly (comes in and heels on my left and sits holding the bumper) then I take the bumper from her and command fetch (correction nick if she hesitates).
Am I to the point I should expect 100% perfect holds? She nails marks and does not have an issue, it rears its head on FTP and yard T work. I think the next step may be to alter the bumpers to allow for only a good center hold (PVC end caps etc).
Thoughts?
The very first time it happens...Every time the dog brings a bumper to me and it is not correctly positioned , I reposition it and command hold ...I'm with Evan on this one ...Why except sloppy behavior and HOPE it goes away ...I have seen dogs carry birds by the wings ,heads( ducks and geese) and geese by the butts ...Some learn on their own but that is not what we want ...teach the dog the proper response from the start..Train not hope ...set your standard of behavior and go for it ...Steve S
 
#27 ·
I start out using a buck made out of a wood closet dowel I drill 2 hole in each end big enough to insert a small wood dowel into so they form an X that keeps them from grabbing the end and also holds it off the floor so they can pick it up easier. After they are holding and picking that up well I switch to a dumbbell it's closer to the floor but is still easier to pickup then a bumper and they still won't grab the end when they are holding that well I then go to a bumper. If they try to cigar it I put PVC pipe on the ends but by the time they get to the bumper there's usually not a problem with them holding it correctly.
 
#31 ·
I believe anytime a young pup does something right naturally, you as the trainer have a leg up in training him, over the dog that doesn't. That doesn't mean you don't reinforce the skill through training, it's just easier if the pup is already doing it right. For example my latest pup naturally, from age seven weeks, ran right out, picked up an object or bird, and ran right back to me. That just gave me a leg up over the pup who runs out there picks up the object and plays "keep-away". We all know there is going to be a lot more training ahead for the pup, just one thing that might be easier than otherwise.
 
#32 ·
Alright guys and gals - stay on topic and stop the mud slinging! You know who you are.

FOM
RTF Moderator
 
#33 ·
Thank you everyone, sorry I had to be away from the thread for a while but I got several great tips from this. Somewhere I do have a wooden bumper with little dowels around the end, I'll dig that out. I've only done force fetch on one other dog (I'm just wading into amateur dog training) and he never tried to cigar. But this little girl (who is also going 90 mph everywhere she goes) is a handful. I do always immediately remove (or move) the bumper and make her hold it correctly which she does willingly. However if I give her any slack and don't watch her like a hawk she immediately works her way down to the end. I understand force fetch involves lots of patience and doing things correctly so we'll just keep at it. Thanks again !
 
#35 ·
I take care of it in FF much like others suggest. 4" to 2" PVC reducer on 1 end. With the reducer on 1 end it also teaches a firm hold. Its not a fight with the right equipment, the dog has no other choice but pick it up correctly. During FTP and T work if they bring one in cigared I just reposition and say hold. Repeat offenses gets the bumper knocked out and fetch command. Easy as that, couldn't imagine doing it any other way.
 
#37 ·
Evan Thanks for your input on this forum, Please do not get offended and drop off. Your advice has been very helpful in the past to me and I am sure it will be in the future.
Thanks, I'm not likely to allow someone like that to affect what I do. I'm glad to help anytime I can.
I take care of it in FF much like others suggest. 4" to 2" PVC reducer on 1 end. With the reducer on 1 end it also teaches a firm hold. Its not a fight with the right equipment, the dog has no other choice but pick it up correctly. During FTP and T work if they bring one in cigared I just reposition and say hold. Repeat offenses gets the bumper knocked out and fetch command. Easy as that, couldn't imagine doing it any other way.
I agree. That's when I take care of it, so it doesn't become a big issue. It just has no chance of becoming one when we don't ignore it from the start of FF.

It should be mentioned that "Cigar hold" is not a specific term, inasmuch as different dogs do it to different degrees. Some are only slightly inclined toward some slop about carrying things. Others are profoundly loose mouthed, and require a much firmer, more consistent application of corrections over more time to assure sound habits. Just because some dogs get over it on their own does not translate into all dogs solving it. Each one is different (big news flash!).;)

Evan
 
#38 ·
I also thank you Evan, for your input and training advice. I have learned a great deal from your YouTube video's and appreciate the fact that I can go on line before going out to train or come in after and see how someone else does whatever concept I'm trying to work on. Extremely beneficial for me as much as the dog. I train alone 99% of the time so having a video to watch because I don't have someone to show me tips, issues, etc. is much appreciated.
 
#40 ·
Hey guys....

An RTF moderator has already asked you guys to knock it off. A couple of you have chosen not to knock it off. I'm here to back the moderator. Knock it off. If you want to argue about the side topic, please take it private.

Regarding cigar hold, here is my own personal thought. Dog training is as much art as it is science. The chemistry between dog and trainer is a unique combination. To me personally, a cigar hold is not attractive to me when my dog is doing it. To me personally, I will spend a little extra time trying to cure the cigar hold. I believe that for some dogs, this can become a gray area. Some dogs seem, to me, to be more "mouth aware" than others. Black and white is whether they are carrying the bumper or dropping it. Gray is if they are not dropping it, and they're carrying it, but they're a little loose and they wind up holding the bumper by the end.

It's personal preference.

If one chooses to "cure" a cigar hold during FF, my opinion is that it takes some finnesse to get it right. If I had a dog with poor mouth awareness, who showed lots of promise on other areas, I may choose to move ahead and focus on the bigger picture. I personally would probably spend some time trying to create better mouth awareness first, and try to cure the hold that to me, is not attractive, before I chose to move ahead.

I do agree with Pete, Marc and others that in the end, it probably is not that big a deal and probably does work itself out in many cases.

Here's a trick I learned from our own /paul - Gundog. It's a good one. I call it "hammer fetch". Hammer fetch is the idea of using a mini-sledge hammer or other object that is highly unbalanced. Merely grabbing the 12 inch handle at the 6 inch point does not lead to a good hold. I have found it to help create mouth awareness without my having to get overly involved. I can keep the session black and white, as the goal is to carry and not drop. IF the dog has loose mouth habits and tries to bobble the object, it is likely to fall. Then we can work on correcting the drop and getting a more solid hold.

Again guys, knock off the bickering please. When a moderator asks for help, I ask that you pitch in. Don't disrespect her, and don't challenge her.

Thanks, Chris
 
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