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Thread: "Cigaring" Bumpers In Force Fetch. How To Fix ?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Criquetpas View Post
    I use a obedience dumbell during Ff and it usually takes care of the problem down the road,. Others have made suggestions, all good for the present.
    That's the approach that keeps it from becoming an issue; do it right the first time. Even if it comes up down the road you will have trained a standard you can uphold readily with the tools you gave the dog. There are items like the obedience dumbell, or a FF bumper sold by various equipment vendors. I use a paint roller in the early stages that I sometimes fit with the same PVC reducer shown on this bumper. You can put one on each end like the dumbell shape.



    Get them at your local hardware store. Still, inspite of your good conditioning with a tool like this, some corrections may be necessary; a cuff under the chin commanding "Hold" for example.

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

    “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

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  2. #22
    Senior Member 25-ott-06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    Im sometimes amazed by what I read on the internet also.
    Training is not a fight; it is an opportunity to teach the dog skills that it will need in real life hunting, trialing situations
    My experience like others have stated, is that this is a fight that doesn't need to be fought. I have NEVER seen a dog cigar a bird
    .
    I don't use a video camera, but you obviously do Evan, as evidenced by your many you tube videos. So I'll make you a deal you put up a youtube video of a dog cigarring a bird and I'll address & fix that problem for you.

    As to your quote "WHY NOT JUST TRAIN" I would say that is advice you should take to heart.

    As opposed to sitting in front of your computer all day long sub liminally pimping your products on every available dog website known to man, why dont you get out and follow your above quote.?
    Actual hands on training is the only way you can stay abreast of advances in dog training & where you learn what does and doesn't work with dogs.
    You owe it to the people who actually succumb to your promotional assault and buy your products, to stay current and be competent in what you promote
    Step out from behind your computer and step up to the line. Im guessing youll have a good time and get some fresh air
    Call copterdoc up to train with you; Im thinking you could both use some fresh air
    Good Luck & Good Training
    I’m amazed people who post like this are left on here it's to bad.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    This one always amazes me. Why is training a fight? Why not just train?

    Evan
    Maybe a poor word choice that was overanalyzed. Was not important enough to spend valuable training time on.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Cut em Shelby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    Im sometimes amazed by what I read on the internet also.
    Training is not a fight; it is an opportunity to teach the dog skills that it will need in real life hunting, trialing situations
    My experience like others have stated, is that this is a fight that doesn't need to be fought. I have NEVER seen a dog cigar a bird
    .
    I don't use a video camera, but you obviously do Evan, as evidenced by your many you tube videos. So I'll make you a deal you put up a youtube video of a dog cigarring a bird and I'll address & fix that problem for you.

    As to your quote "WHY NOT JUST TRAIN" I would say that is advice you should take to heart.

    As opposed to sitting in front of your computer all day long sub liminally pimping your products on every available dog website known to man, why dont you get out and follow your above quote.?
    Actual hands on training is the only way you can stay abreast of advances in dog training & where you learn what does and doesn't work with dogs.
    You owe it to the people who actually succumb to your promotional assault and buy your products, to stay current and be competent in what you promote
    Step out from behind your computer and step up to the line. Im guessing youll have a good time and get some fresh air
    Call copterdoc up to train with you; Im thinking you could both use some fresh air
    Good Luck & Good Training
    Says the guy sitting in front of his own computer. His product works, he offers free and sound advice on here. Tool.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matador View Post
    So back to questions about "cigarring." At what point do you consider it to be an issue? Example: my 10 month old YLF is currently working on wrapping up the intro/teaching to casting before we re-in"force" it and then start T and TT work. She had a harder time than what I would consider normal with "hold" and then we went through FF without any issues. During FTP, she was cigarring almost every bumper. I went back and spent more time and focus on FF and changed to larger bumpers. Cigarring disappeared. Now during the intro to casting, she randomly cigars a bumper, or cigars a bumper then as she approaches me repositions and comes in to finishing position. If she comes back with the bumper improperly placed or fails to finish cleanly (comes in and heels on my left and sits holding the bumper) then I take the bumper from her and command fetch (correction nick if she hesitates).
    Am I to the point I should expect 100% perfect holds? She nails marks and does not have an issue, it rears its head on FTP and yard T work. I think the next step may be to alter the bumpers to allow for only a good center hold (PVC end caps etc).
    Thoughts?
    The very first time it happens...Every time the dog brings a bumper to me and it is not correctly positioned , I reposition it and command hold ...I'm with Evan on this one ...Why except sloppy behavior and HOPE it goes away ...I have seen dogs carry birds by the wings ,heads( ducks and geese) and geese by the butts ...Some learn on their own but that is not what we want ...teach the dog the proper response from the start..Train not hope ...set your standard of behavior and go for it ...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  6. #26
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    The very first time it happens...Every time the dog brings a bumper to me and it is not correctly positioned , I reposition it and command hold
    The very first time. Hmm, would that be like eight weeks old




    or maybe nine?





    Give them the early introduction, and "hope" has nothing to do with it, and it ain't becoming an issue, either.

    MG

  7. #27
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    I start out using a buck made out of a wood closet dowel I drill 2 hole in each end big enough to insert a small wood dowel into so they form an X that keeps them from grabbing the end and also holds it off the floor so they can pick it up easier. After they are holding and picking that up well I switch to a dumbbell it's closer to the floor but is still easier to pickup then a bumper and they still won't grab the end when they are holding that well I then go to a bumper. If they try to cigar it I put PVC pipe on the ends but by the time they get to the bumper there's usually not a problem with them holding it correctly.
    HRCH Dallys Wild Willow SH Born 11-06-97 Left Us 1-30-12 will always be in my thoughts RIP Willow

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    The very first time. Hmm, would that be like eight weeks old




    or maybe nine?





    Give them the early introduction, and "hope" has nothing to do with it, and it ain't becoming an issue, either.

    MG

    That is exactly what you are doing ..HOPE...Just because a dog learns something on its on doesn't mean it will be the correct way ...You take what a pup at 8 weeks gives you ..you hope it will just drag it away to play with it ....As Danny Farmer put it one time, " natural dogs pee in the floor , I want a trained dog" Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  9. #29
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve schreiner View Post
    That is exactly what you are doing ..HOPE...Just because a dog learns something on its on doesn't mean it will be the correct way ...You take what a pup at 8 weeks gives you ..you hope it will just drag it away to play with it ....
    So you're saying a pup picks a bumper or bird correctly at 8-9-10 weeks, it's going to untrain itself when older to start cigaring them? That seems to be your premise. Nobody said anything about dragging anything anywhere, but mine have done a pretty good job getting the goods back to me from the git-go. So they're going to untrain themselves on delivering to hand too?

    I would infer that you also "hope" I train them up - and like I say, ain't no hope necessary in that little equation or whether they'll retrieve the right way, either. Cigaring strikes me as making a mountain out of insignificance - but I've not had the "problem" with any gundog I've ever trained, so your lecturing on it will have to suffice as to how to overcome it.

    MG

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    So you're saying a pup picks a bumper or bird correctly at 8-9-10 weeks, it's going to untrain itself when older to start cigaring them? That seems to be your premise. Nobody said anything about dragging anything anywhere, but mine have done a pretty good job getting the goods back to me from the git-go. So they're going to untrain themselves on delivering to hand too?

    I would infer that you also "hope" I train them up - and like I say, ain't no hope necessary in that little equation or whether they'll retrieve the right way, either. Cigaring strikes me as making a mountain out of insignificance - but I've not had the "problem" with any gundog I've ever trained, so your lecturing on it will have to suffice as to how to overcome it.

    MG
    If you took the word ( YOU ) in my other post personal it was not intended that away ..YOU was to apply to every dog owner.... We take what ever an 8 week old pup gives us ...proper hold and retrieve OR drag it around and play with it ...

    Let's not start an argument over this ...When it comes to dogs behavior most dogs will also learn (on their own ) to play keep away at some point of their young lives...Because they are just doing it ( returning and carrying it ) on their own and want to...When their mind changes the behavior will change too...I hope you never have an issue with a dog not holding or retrieving properly for you ...But for the many out there that do, like the OP and myself, we will have to teach the dog proper behaviors....It all boils down to what ones standard of behavior is ...some say never worry about it ,fine , if that is the way they want it ...It is their dog ...I want a dog that is trained to respond in a given manner..I'm not relying on the dogs " want to " ...Steve S
    Last edited by steve schreiner; 02-19-2013 at 06:37 PM.
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

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