USA vs World

[Colonel Blimp]

Dave,

Just some brief comments on your last post ....

it needs reiterating that the event Mr Voight took part in wasn't a Field Trial or anything like one, so the judges interpretation may or may not have represented their operations in a Trial. I'm not qualified to say just how judges in UK Trials give weight to handling or not, but you should bear in mind that the concept of a bird being a mark or not doesn't apply. If a bird comes to ground and the dog marks it, it's a mark and if it comes to ground without the dog seeing it it's a blind. In a US Trial the two are clearly distinguished, but in a UK Trial it's just a bird on the ground and you deal with it as you may.

One other thing crosses my mind; no ground game in US Trials. You'd need to train for it and also for steadiness to a running hare or rabbit. I've seen a GSP Trial that looked like a good night at a greyhound stadium, very amusing for everyone except the handlers.

Your point about a bird hitting the ground and running is well made. On a "real" shoot as opposed to a Trial, If I see a bird hit in the air that's flying on towards cover I'll often send the dog straight away, but I've never seen that happen at a Trial.

The "cultural" thing is often misinterpreted. Driven shooting is still not for the impecunious, but the associated dog work is open to Everyman. Trialling does have it's costs of course, but one of the most successful and well regarded Triallers in recent years is a lady living in a city area council house. Many folk use the cash from their picking up days (beaters and pickers get paid) to defray expenses generally and make a contribution to other doggy activities, which might be Trialling, Working Tests or scurries. The latter are probably worth an explanation in themselves.

Yes, American mores and perceptions are different to those over here; this is often summed up in the phrase "They're absolutely bloody barking mad you know". It's almost a definition of another culture to say "Well I don't understand it, but it's wrong anyway, we'd never do it like that".

Nose. Well it's of prime importance to me, and I selected Lab Jack as a puppy because his blood line was renowned for good schnozzles and he hasn't disappointed; to put it in "our" terms, he's as good as the best Springer I ever had! His sire was the winning Welsh dog at Sherborne which may or may not be a coincidence. It seems from what folk say, that US Trials don't put a dog's nose to the test in the same way that the Brit version does, wether that represents a potential problem for the breed I'm unqualified to say, that's for you guys.

[Dave Flint]

...bear in mind that the concept of a bird being a mark or not doesn't apply. If a bird comes to ground and the dog marks it, it's a mark and if it comes to ground without the dog seeing it it's a blind. In a US Trial the two are clearly distinguished, but in a UK Trial it's just a bird on the ground and you deal with it as you may.

I really hadn’t thought of it that way. I think it would be a huge adjustment for Americans to accept the degree of subjectivity in a trial like that. As described in an earlier post, we strive to provide each dog the same test as far as possible & the judges draw diagrams of the path the dog takes to each bird which he can compare at the end of each series.

Nose. Well it's of prime importance to me, and I selected Lab Jack as a puppy because his blood ]line was renowned for good schnozzles and he hasn't disappointed; to put it in "our" terms, he's as good as the best Springer I ever had! His sire was the winning Welsh dog at Sherborne which may or may not be a coincidence. It seems from what folk say, that US Trials don't put a dog's nose to the test in the same way that the Brit version does, wether that represents a potential problem for the breed I'm unqualified to say, that's for you guys.

I agree & I understand what you mean by “our” terms. It isn’t common to hear an experienced Springer man claim that about a Labrador but I heard the exact sentiment a couple of weeks ago from a trainer whose opinions I respect about his own experience w/ imported Labs.
In my own experience w/ my Labs vs my Springers, the Springers have been considerably more efficient at trailing & producing game.

[crackerd]

It seems from what folk say, that US Trials don't put a dog's nose to the test in the same way that the Brit version does, wether that represents a potential problem for the breed I'm unqualified to say, that's for you guys.

Eug, what folk don't say is - and have to think Dave's aware of this, too - there are no runners in N. American retriever field trials so nose cannae be "put to the test in the same way the Brit version does." Every bird is either thrown dead or, in US trials, shot dead as a flyer. Anything else - a flyaway on a miss or a pricked pheasant that flew too far before falling - gets a "no bird" from the judges. Meaning a "do-over."

But no, it's not a potential problem for the breed or breeds plural not to have their nose tested in the same way as you lot - when we want to test our dogs' noses, we shoot hen pheasants as the fare in a field trial.

MG

[polmaise]

when we want to test our dogs' noses, we shoot hen pheasants as the fare in a field trial.

MG

Funny enough! Depending on the time of year?.A 'Field Fair' Is by far the hardest bird to identify?.Unless you are 'Field fair' of course But then what of the Partridge? Must be the same for the dog?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7AMwdu_xKM

And like 'EUG' has said,Often the dog is sent for the cripple(on command) when in flight!,but even then the cripple wants to sit just tight!and hold them feathers Oh so tight.So the 'ONE' may require a little a help from 'God Almighty'?..Or Dear old Blighty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vETL1waaq34

And again like our learned Countryman' had reiterated 'It's all about getting the game. Our Job is getting the dog in the best place to find that game.
Ok!,So the dog shown is not mine! But it is Now,and it came here for issues with 'Hard mouth' on Partridge of all things!!..But even so. It's what 'I believe' ''We are all about''!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WMaztF2gaU

[Duckquilizer]

UKC-HRC Hunt Test Rule:

2. NOSE
A sharply tuned nose is obviously a desirable characteristic of a hunting retriever; however, it
is a difficult attribute to specifically test. Judges should be on constant alert for this trait
during all tests. Judges should be careful, however, and not be quick to mark down a lack of nose
on a particular test as scenting conditions can
vary considerably from test to test.

AKC Hunt Test:

Section 2. The Judges shall score the dogs on (a)
their natural abilities including Marking (memory), Style,
Perseverance/courage/hunting, and (b) to relatively greater degrees in Senior and Master Hunting Tests
their Trainability as evidenced in steadiness, control,
response and delivery.

We expect them to use all of thier senses on marks. Eyes to get them to the area of the fall and thier nose to dig the bird out, once they get in tight and establish a hunt. On blinds, we only allow the use of our senses...

AKC FT Rule:

22. The Judges must judge the dogs for (a) their natural abilities including their memory, intelligence, attention, nose, courage, perseverance and style, and (b) their abilities acquired through training, including steadiness, control, response to direction, and delivery. Decisions to eliminate a dog from a stake as a result of faulty performance must be the consensus of the Judges.



The common theme throughout our venues would be all senses are of equal value...

[crackerd]

The common theme throughout our venues would be all senses are of equal value...

"Taste" tested as an equal value too? If it's still nose that's drawing focus, Eug could accredit ol' Barney Rubble here for best practices at sand and gravel mining.

MG

[Duckquilizer]

"Taste" tested as an equal value too? If it's still nose that's drawing focus, Eug could accredit ol' Barney Rubble here for best practices at sand and gravel mining.

MG

That last taste test I witnessed drew an immediate failure...lol. Maybe I should have struck out 4 or 5 senses. I'll never forget the first one I saw, itwas' a young "water" poodle with a nice fro'...


My rule quotes where geared toward this:

Nose. Well it's of prime importance to me, and I selected Lab Jack as a puppy because his blood line was renowned for good schnozzles and he hasn't disappointed; to put it in "our" terms, he's as good as the best Springer I ever had! His sire was the winning Welsh dog at Sherborne which may or may not be a coincidence. It seems from what folk say, that US Trials don't put a dog's nose to the test in the same way that the Brit version does, wether that represents a potential problem for the breed I'm unqualified to say, that's for you guys.

[Hunt'EmUp]

We can quote rules all we want the fact of it is in many venues Nose is considered last if at all. It can oftentimes be an extreme hindrance, to a testing retriever. Heck we set up test/trials/series that contradict the game finding ability (go straight, through and away from those nice pockets of scent, trust your eyes and memory, the nose is untrustworthy and plays tricks). Still Nose is tested just depends on the venue, NAHRA has 2 series pretty much devoted to it, a quarter to flush (hard to locate a well hid bird without nose) and the "Dreaded" trail (don't see how you can trail a bird without nose). Also the HRC upland which requires multiple finds and controlled-steady flushes of released birds. Of course these tests due to the nature of scent are the more subjective, thus often times controversial. They are the tests most players dread, probably having to do with the lack of handler input or control over events, it's all on the wind and the dog. If you were to throw such a subjective series into a US-FT, it would be pandemonium, the judges might as well carry their own rope Hard if not impossible to ensure "the same test" It's very conceivable that the top dogs through no fault of their own could go out with a gust of wind .

[Duckquilizer]

I agree its not at the forefront... So what is the point of establishing a hunt in the area of the fall? To look for the bird till you find it or use the snoot and scent?

[Colonel Blimp]

DQ posted

what is the point of establishing a hunt in the area of the fall? To look for the bird till you find it or use the snoot and scent?

I guess there is a bit of a disconnect between US Field Trials, UK Field Trials, and real life hunting. For me, as a non Trialler in either jurisdiction getting the bird to hand is the gold standard. Outcomes count most.

However if the electrodes were applied and I had to choose between a strong marker with a poorish nose and a poorish marker with a strong nose, I'd take the latter. A runner in deep cover needs a dog that that can use his nose and his ears, his marking ability is secondary IMO. So I need to get him into the area of fall...... if it's in cover he has to hunt; if it's in the open it's an opticians job.

Eug