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USA vs World

12K views 70 replies 29 participants last post by  Renee P. 
#1 ·
I would like to see the best of the best. USA vs World. If this could get pulled off I bet there would be sponsors. It would be the equivalent to the Ryder Cup. It seems the USA is always being targeted to be defeated. OK any of you from across the pond willing?
 
#40 · (Edited)
Bracken, pretty common the world over I thought. Marginally toxic and very invasive. it can grow to three / four feet high and is a real barrier to dogs; very easy to lose a sense of direction, and from their level obscures a lot of skyline. In wintertime it dies back and makes good cover for wild pheasants. In common with others I've hunted a runner for hundred of yards through this stuff.



Stinging nettles. Like bracken they die back in winter, but when fully ripe in summertime, a lot of dogs would rather go round them than through. Particularly common round dwellings and farms where the soil is rich in phosphorous from wood fire ashes. In damp woodlands they can be as tall as a man.



Eug
 
#44 ·
In wintertime it dies back and makes good cover for wild pheasants. In common with others I've hunted a runner for hundred of yards through this stuff.

Eug
Eug,

I was under the impression that it was "bad form" on that side of the pond for a dog to take running birds, or are you talking about a wounded bird?
 
#42 ·
The "nettles" or whatever they were, were everywhere. Really bothered the US dogs. Maggie rolled on her back on the team walking hunt to get rid of the sting and was put for "unsteadiness." Connie carried Eli from one test to another to keep him out the stuff. Late on the last day, when we noticed the nettles did not seem to bother the EU dogs we were told that all had a protective salve on their pads. Funny they did not mention that at the start of the trial. :)
 
#48 ·
You sound a bit like you feel rather 'hard done by' in your posts. :( I'm sorry you feel like that. I really doubt there was any vendetta against the USA team or its dogs!

Nettles really bother a lot of dogs, and where possible we would avoid throwing dummies into them. I do think yellow dogs are troubled often worse than the blacks. I think their pads are more sensitive. I've never heard of a salve that you can put on your dogs pads for it, and I have trialled and tested up and down the country. But, I do know some of the continentals (swedish etc) do use various things on their dogs pads occasionally to protect against ice etc, so maybe they tried that? I don't think anyone was keeping secret potions from you?!

It is unfortunate that these 'working tests' happen in summer when nettles and brambles can be a bit fierce. The World Cup event is no longer held at Sherbourne, but is at Highclere instead, and I don't remember seeing many nettles there..... so, maybe come back and have another go? :D

WRT being put out for unsteadiness. I very much doubt that the judge would put a dog out just because of irritation of nettles. I was in a trial last October which included some very nasty cover, which affected my co-competitors dog's pads badly and he lay down and was trying to relieve the itching. Sensible judging prevailed. You can tell if a dog is unsteady....

I admire you hugely for coming over and having a go, and your dogs clearly performed well. I would expect them to though!! with the amount of highly technical training you do. Like Dennis says, these tests are a 'walk in the park' when compared to the great long distances your dogs do over land and water in your 'trials'. But they are what they are, working tests - and a great bit of fun too. :D
 
#45 ·
Dave asked
are you talking about a wounded bird?
Yes. I should have made that clear. What we term "lining" is regarded as a fault, it's the dogs job to produce a shot for the Gun, not chase a chicken into the next parish.

Many years ago in Scotland my Springer trailed and retrieved a pricked bird through what felt like miles of dead bracken. We eventually found it just about alive tucked deep into the fallen fronds and stalks, completely invisible. As best as I could make out from an Ordnance Survey map he'd run 450 metres.

Eug
 
#51 · (Edited)
For those in the UK.......
I felt like writing a bit about how we do things here. Hopefully it may clear up some misconceptions and give you an idea about how we field trial. Hope it makes sense as sometimes I’m even confused. lol
There are major differences between our expectations and yours that is certain. We don’t have any tests at all on dummies as rules require ducks and or pheasant be used. As we use farm raised game we have no restrictions on running trials out of hunting seasons. We do not drive or flush birds at field trials but rather hand toss birds from fixed locations. The only time we don’t conduct actual field trials are the 2 or 3 months of winter and summer when most people concentrate on training, moving to south in winter and north in summer. Field Trials are always 3 day events that flow north or south from one week to the next with the seasons. As we place great emphases on dogs water ability we prefer not to trial in freezing water though it may occur. In order to reduce the risk of injury to our dogs, many of whom are worth more than a Range Rover, we do things different here. Judges will walk and inspect field for hidden dangers, we never climb up high walls, jump fences or barbed wire. We do not set tests were birds or dogs path will be near natural dangers like ground hog holes, thick sticker thorns, dangerous rocks etc. We try not set tests where it is clear dog will be out of our sight for more than a few seconds.
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In the US & Canada, Marks are the Dogs Responsibility. Blinds are the handlers Responsibility. It is somewhat the reverse overseas as I understand it.
So basically we relinquish control to dog on the marks, dog yields control to us on the blinds.
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Our rules require that each Mark, as it falls to ground, be visible to the Dog and his view of fall shall not be obscured. We value a dog with Memory. If dog can't count to 3 or 4 and remember where each bird fell he will end up a pet dog somewhere. Birds are presented to dog with dog sitting by Handler at heel. (most of the time). Each of ~80+ dogs sees and retrieves the exact same marks and blinds as the other dogs. That is, all dogs run from the same door mat, guns are in fixed positions designated by judges and toss birds to same spot for each dog. Normally, a dog is visible to the judges and handler at all times. Our marking tests are 3 or 4 birds shot one after the other (to save $ one live bird is shot, the rest are cold birds hand thrown, with a 12Ga shot). Essentially each dog must do a better job, eye wiping the poorer jobs in the judges eyes to survive and move on to next test. On our marking tests if a handler needs to blow the whistle to help dog he is often eliminated. (the exception being a quick crisp handle occasionally bests a long protracted hunt). All else being equal a dog stepping on a bird on first pass will defeat a dog requiring 2 passes or a handle. In our field trials marks are normally in the 100 yard to 400 yard range, the same for blinds both on Land & Water. Generally about 7 dogs can be run on a marking test within one hour. It is not unheard of for a water marking test to take 20 minutes of swimming for one dog to complete. The most difficult water retrieve occurring near the end of those 20 minutes when dogs memory of it has likely faded. With ~12 dogs typically surviving to the 4th series water marks, often with similar work prior, a dogs performance on the very last bird may determine if he wins or slips to award of merit.
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For land & water Blinds judges identify the precise location of birds to every handler. Since blinds are often 300+ yards distant some folks have difficulty "seeing" the location. Binoculars hung around neck are the norm for running blinds, as are whistles that can be heard 400 yards away, in a stiff cross wind, while dog is swimming. Main reason no one here would use 401 Spaniel whistle.
On our Blinds, by rule, dog should not go out of sight of handler for but a moment. (there are minor exceptions). Essentially FT blinds are a demonstration of our control over dog and dogs willingness to relinquish his senses and accept our direction in the face of contradictory factors. Yes, I know you smell a bird over there but I want you to go here and I’m not telling you again! lol
On a blind imagine driving dog through a field or pond keeping him within width of a road for 300 yards while trying not to let dog stray off to either side if he happens to see or smell something inviting. A dog who complies with our direction to the bird WE want without too much zig-zag or handling along the way will normally be judged to have done a good job.
 
#53 · (Edited)
What Breck didn't say was whenever possible we tend to use technical water for testing

On a given piece of technical water there are a finite number of "Big League Marks" . Over time these marks become school marks for those dogs that train there

Additionally as more of this technical water is built and used for testing, the water marks have become more and more contrived,and the emphasis placed on the line to it has overshadowed marking so much so that if one does not have ample access to technical water to train on this type of lining they have all most an insurmountable uphill battle ahead of them when being tested..

john
 
#52 ·
Well said Breck. I would add a normal trial starts with marks on land, then a blind or blinds on land, blind on water and lastly marks on the water for a fourth series. There is an honor somewhere too, usually the first series.

The Derby dogs are aged 2 years and under. They typically get 4 series with 2 marks in each series, 2 series on land and 2 on water. No blinds, no honor. If you handle on a mark elimination is required.

I think one of the best things about the trials are that all dogs run the same test.
 
#54 ·
And Eug
In the maps sent were locations of best technical water in America. If you use your imagination placing dog, guns and bird falls in and around the properties you will see what we face.
 
#56 ·
And given same marks and blinds for all dogs there are advantages and dissadvantages to running first, twenty first, or last. Early little to no bird or dog scent is present but possible bad paths haven't developed. Early sun may be in dogs eyes, later a key gun may be in shadows. Running early handler has not seen other dogs fall into judges traps were later handlers may make adjustments. Wind direction may switch. Bird your dog had great difficulty with will be easier for dogs with more favorable wind. There may be tall cover midway to bird that collects drag back scent. Dogs may stop short to hunt there ruining their run. Etc etc.
 
#57 ·
Some very good posts on this thread - having grown up & hunted SD in the 40's & 50's & participated in the corn field drives can imagine a driven shoot - we used to get 300 to 700 birds up with every change in cover hunting without dogs.

We have Nettles here (use Weedmaster to control them) & call brackens, Ferns here, & have some, very thick like a sugar beet plant - perfect lab hunting cover.
 
#59 ·
I find it fascinating how differently our field trials have evolved in what we expect & how we evaluate performance. Since I’ve never seen a British field trial, all of this is admittedly conjecture on my part but from what I understand, the British demand the highest degree of obedience & absolute composure “at the line”, even to a degree that seems absurd (tossed for yawning?). On the other hand, from an American perspective, the work in the field as described sounds quite unsophisticated (Handling on marks & hunting on blinds?) compared to an American trial.

I suppose some of the differences can be explained by the fact that American Labs are primarily used as waterfowl dogs and therefore we want to be able to direct a swimming dog straight to the bird. In the British hunting tradition, the birds are shot (often at great range) over land where they may hit the ground running so a handler that insisted on handling a dog could easily be giving the dog bad information.

The other major difference though I think is “cultural”. While the American sporting tradition includes all social levels with even many wealthy patrons having roots that were poor & rural, in Great Britain hunting has always been exclusive to the upper class. I think this may be why they expect their dogs to comport themselves in the most “gentlemanly” manner.

There seems to be something in the American nature that appreciates a barely restrained wildness that is reflected in how we appreciate dog work. We want our pointers to run so big that a scout on horseback is required to help keep track of him, our spaniels are expected to accelerate into the flush often snapping at the bird in the air & our retrievers run straighter & farther than anywhere else but we’re willing to overlook a bit of unruly behavior at the line even though we are supposedly all evaluating hunting dogs.

Personally, I think that both perspectives have merit. Each game elevates specific traits; composure & nose in the British version & memory & drive in the American. I have always thought that the Hunt Test programs went astray when they modeled themselves as 2nd class field trials. I wish that they had more in common w/ the values of the British game. I think that's why "British Labs" are promoted in this country to fill the niche for which Hunt Tests missed the boat.
 
#60 ·
"...... I have always thought that the Hunt Test programs went astray when they modeled themselves as 2nd class field trials. I wish that they had more in common w/ the values of the British game. I think that's why "British Labs" are promoted in this country to fill the niche for which Hunt Tests missed the boat."

I think this is one of the best statements I have seen for awhile.
 
#61 · (Edited)
Dave,

Just some brief comments on your last post ....

it needs reiterating that the event Mr Voight took part in wasn't a Field Trial or anything like one, so the judges interpretation may or may not have represented their operations in a Trial. I'm not qualified to say just how judges in UK Trials give weight to handling or not, but you should bear in mind that the concept of a bird being a mark or not doesn't apply. If a bird comes to ground and the dog marks it, it's a mark and if it comes to ground without the dog seeing it it's a blind. In a US Trial the two are clearly distinguished, but in a UK Trial it's just a bird on the ground and you deal with it as you may.

One other thing crosses my mind; no ground game in US Trials. You'd need to train for it and also for steadiness to a running hare or rabbit. I've seen a GSP Trial that looked like a good night at a greyhound stadium, very amusing for everyone except the handlers.

Your point about a bird hitting the ground and running is well made. On a "real" shoot as opposed to a Trial, If I see a bird hit in the air that's flying on towards cover I'll often send the dog straight away, but I've never seen that happen at a Trial.

The "cultural" thing is often misinterpreted. Driven shooting is still not for the impecunious, but the associated dog work is open to Everyman. Trialling does have it's costs of course, but one of the most successful and well regarded Triallers in recent years is a lady living in a city area council house. Many folk use the cash from their picking up days (beaters and pickers get paid) to defray expenses generally and make a contribution to other doggy activities, which might be Trialling, Working Tests or scurries. The latter are probably worth an explanation in themselves.

Yes, American mores and perceptions are different to those over here; this is often summed up in the phrase "They're absolutely bloody barking mad you know".;-) It's almost a definition of another culture to say "Well I don't understand it, but it's wrong anyway, we'd never do it like that".

Nose. Well it's of prime importance to me, and I selected Lab Jack as a puppy because his blood line was renowned for good schnozzles and he hasn't disappointed; to put it in "our" terms, he's as good as the best Springer I ever had! His sire was the winning Welsh dog at Sherborne which may or may not be a coincidence. It seems from what folk say, that US Trials don't put a dog's nose to the test in the same way that the Brit version does, wether that represents a potential problem for the breed I'm unqualified to say, that's for you guys.
 
#62 ·
...bear in mind that the concept of a bird being a mark or not doesn't apply. If a bird comes to ground and the dog marks it, it's a mark and if it comes to ground without the dog seeing it it's a blind. In a US Trial the two are clearly distinguished, but in a UK Trial it's just a bird on the ground and you deal with it as you may.
I really hadn’t thought of it that way. I think it would be a huge adjustment for Americans to accept the degree of subjectivity in a trial like that. As described in an earlier post, we strive to provide each dog the same test as far as possible & the judges draw diagrams of the path the dog takes to each bird which he can compare at the end of each series.

Nose. Well it's of prime importance to me, and I selected Lab Jack as a puppy because his blood ]line was renowned for good schnozzles and he hasn't disappointed; to put it in "our" terms, he's as good as the best Springer I ever had! His sire was the winning Welsh dog at Sherborne which may or may not be a coincidence. It seems from what folk say, that US Trials don't put a dog's nose to the test in the same way that the Brit version does, wether that represents a potential problem for the breed I'm unqualified to say, that's for you guys.
I agree & I understand what you mean by “our” terms. It isn’t common to hear an experienced Springer man claim that about a Labrador but I heard the exact sentiment a couple of weeks ago from a trainer whose opinions I respect about his own experience w/ imported Labs.
In my own experience w/ my Labs vs my Springers, the Springers have been considerably more efficient at trailing & producing game.
 
#65 · (Edited)
UKC-HRC Hunt Test Rule:

2. NOSE
A sharply tuned nose is obviously a desirable characteristic of a hunting retriever; however, it
is a difficult attribute to specifically test. Judges should be on constant alert for this trait
during all tests. Judges should be careful, however, and not be quick to mark down a lack of nose
on a particular test as scenting conditions can
vary considerably from test to test.

AKC Hunt Test:

Section 2. The Judges shall score the dogs on (a)
their natural abilities including Marking (memory), Style,
Perseverance/courage/hunting, and (b) to relatively greater degrees in Senior and Master Hunting Tests
their Trainability as evidenced in steadiness, control,
response and delivery.

We expect them to use all of thier senses on marks. Eyes to get them to the area of the fall and thier nose to dig the bird out, once they get in tight and establish a hunt. On blinds, we only allow the use of our senses...

AKC FT Rule:

22. The Judges must judge the dogs for (a) their natural abilities including their memory, intelligence, attention, nose, courage, perseverance and style, and (b) their abilities acquired through training, including steadiness, control, response to direction, and delivery. Decisions to eliminate a dog from a stake as a result of faulty performance must be the consensus of the Judges.



The common theme throughout our venues would be all senses are of equal value...
 
#68 · (Edited)
We can quote rules all we want the fact of it is in many venues Nose is considered last if at all. It can oftentimes be an extreme hindrance, to a testing retriever. Heck we set up test/trials/series that contradict the game finding ability (go straight, through and away from those nice pockets of scent, trust your eyes and memory, the nose is untrustworthy and plays tricks). Still Nose is tested just depends on the venue, NAHRA has 2 series pretty much devoted to it, a quarter to flush (hard to locate a well hid bird without nose) and the "Dreaded" trail (don't see how you can trail a bird without nose). Also the HRC upland which requires multiple finds and controlled-steady flushes of released birds. Of course these tests due to the nature of scent are the more subjective, thus often times controversial. They are the tests most players dread, probably having to do with the lack of handler input or control over events, it's all on the wind and the dog. If you were to throw such a subjective series into a US-FT, it would be pandemonium, the judges might as well carry their own rope ;) Hard if not impossible to ensure "the same test" It's very conceivable that the top dogs through no fault of their own could go out with a gust of wind ;).
 
#70 · (Edited)
DQ posted
what is the point of establishing a hunt in the area of the fall? To look for the bird till you find it or use the snoot and scent?
I guess there is a bit of a disconnect between US Field Trials, UK Field Trials, and real life hunting. For me, as a non Trialler in either jurisdiction getting the bird to hand is the gold standard. Outcomes count most.

However if the electrodes were applied and I had to choose between a strong marker with a poorish nose and a poorish marker with a strong nose, I'd take the latter. A runner in deep cover needs a dog that that can use his nose and his ears, his marking ability is secondary IMO. So I need to get him into the area of fall...... if it's in cover he has to hunt; if it's in the open it's an opticians job.

Eug
 
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