I really try to stay removed from these discussions as most are exposing opinions based on limited or fallacious opinions. The Flannery and other stories are tucked away and WE DID HAVE FUN. Regarding Jim: At the WNYRC fall trial Jim was running Charlie Cooney's Abe. Well Everet Mc Graw was an individual from California who had moved to Buffalo NY and was a politician and as so often true was of dubious integrity. Pete Jones had called the powers that were then(Dick Toma?) and pimped for Everet to be called to judge. Evert's co judge Mike Tyler was a hands on amateur trainer and a hell of a fine man. Well the Open was over and when the judges compared sheets McGraw had CORKY. Well there was no way Corky had beat Andy's Partner Pete or Abe. They went 5,and McGraw would not back off. At that point Mike signed the book and went home to Ohio. McGraw held a 6th, by himself, awarded Corky 1st , Pete, 2nd, Abe 3rd. Abe needed 2 points for that Novembers National. Well Jim(his indian blood and wrestling vigor) proceeded to say how he was going to go kick the shit out of McGraw. I told Jim that the 5" solid post I held would be over his head. Jim was a pro and to do so would have had his professional status jeopardized.I got Jim calmed down and 3 weeks later the AKC sent the revised placements ABE,Pete, Corky and ?. Ironically Abe won the Open the next weekend. Jim and Shirley were the people who were the foundation of our sport. Damn, but(except that Jim was at the time alcoholic ,which I am too, but I hadn't figured it out yet) we had fun and it was primarily because most of us then trained ourselves and were club members and worked a trials. Today we have very few club members, most attendees have pros train and therefore the foundation has feet of clay- Pros run the dogs get paid and the organizers of the event hire workers. This will be my last post, it was only out of respect for Jim that I came. I told Chris that the real purpose for my being onRTF is to get callbacks at 9pm after feeding and planning the next day. That will remain my 99% sole purpose.