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FT Goldens then and now =Barty?

41K views 174 replies 39 participants last post by  Diane Brunelle 
#1 · (Edited)
The Lab thread got me thinking of this. It seems most of the current great FT Goldens are closely or not too distantly descended from Holway Barty or Topbrass Cotton (son of Barty) on both sides.

Are current FC AFC Goldens that much different from Barty, the son of two English FTCH? I know English trial standards have changed as well as US standards, but the genes of Barty or Cotton can't be that much different from current FT Goldens. Or do you think they are? If not, perhaps we should help the breed pool on both sides of the pond by breeding US to UK.

Thoughts? Reflections on current FT Goldens vs Past?
 
#95 ·
First of all to say that Jim Pickering has "done fairly well with a Lab" is an understatement. Making an FC AFC and competing in the National Open is a little more than doing fairly well. I've seen him on Facebook but no longer on this site. He had some wonderful dogs and great breedings during his "Golden" years. There is a reason that he took up the "other" breed and one can only guess why. I do have my thoughts.
 
#96 · (Edited)
Bev...my smiley face meant to be an indication of a little bit of humor.

Sorry..if it sounded otherwise..

Best,

Judy
 
#100 · (Edited)
You might want to refer to this website: www.undeniablegoldens.com
Top producing sires for FCs:

1 NAFC-FC TOPBRASS COTTON OS FDHF 7 /6 /1978 Male 5 FC Offspring
2 AFC YANKEE'S SMOKE'N RED DEVIL OS 1 /18/1978 Male 5 FC Offspring
3 FC-AFC BONNIE BROOKS ELMER OS FDHF 1 /27/1965 Male
4 FC Offspring4 AFC HOLWAY BARTY OS 2 /22/1971 Male 4 FC Offspring
5 FC-AFC OAKCREEK'S SIR DORCHESTER OS FDHF 1 /30/1948 Male 4 FC Offspring
6 POIKA OF HANDJEM OS 11/1 /1961 Male 4 FC Offspring
7 JOLLY AGAIN OF OUILMETTE CD *** OS 10/12/1961 Male 3 FC Offspring
8 ROCKHAVEN TUCK ** OS 10/26/1934 Male 3 FC Offspring
9 STILROVIN BEARCAT OS 6 /15/1953 Male 3 FC Offspring
10 STILROVIN BULLET *** OS 8 /8 /1936 Male 3 FC Offspring
11 WRAITH'S DUNCAN MH *** OS 10/14/1984 Male 3 FC Offspring

Top Producing Sires for AFCs
1 AFC HOLWAY BARTY OS 2 /22/1971 Male 7 AFC Offspring
2 AFC YANKEE'S SMOKE'N RED DEVIL OS 1 /18/1978 Male 7 AFC Offspring
3 FC-AFC BONNIE BROOKS ELMER OS FDHF 1 /27/1965 Male 5 AFC Offspring
4 NAFC-FC TOPBRASS COTTON OS FDHF 7 /6 /1978 Male 5 AFC Offspring
5 FC-AFC OAKCREEK'S SIR DORCHESTER OS FDHF 1 /30/1948 Male 4 AFC Offspring
6 POIKA OF HANDJEM OS 11/1 /1961 Male 4 AFC Offspring
7 WRAITH'S DUNCAN MH *** OS 10/14/1984 Male 4 AFC Offspring
8 JOLLY AGAIN OF OUILMETTE CD *** OS 10/12/1961 Male 3 AFC Offspring
9 FC-AFC KINIKE CHANCELLOR OS FDHF 8 /20/1969 Male 3 AFC Offspring
10 STILROVIN BEARCAT OS 6 /15/1953 Male 3 AFC Offspring
11 FC-AFC TIGATHOE'S KIOWA II OS FDHF 11/11/1971 Male 3 AFC Offspring
12 FC WRAITHS HTR MN BRO MACDHUIBH OS 10/14/1995 Male 3 AFC Offspring

It is then interesting to note the pedigree connections between these more recent top producing sires:Cotton & Duncan are both Barty sons; and Red was a Barty grandson. Elmer was a son of Tuffy; and Ki a son of Elmer.You might say that it's a small world :)

Since field trials keep getting more competitive and tests more difficult, (not to mention more expensive!) I might wonder than ANY sire will be able to top the #s of 5 and 7 of the present top producing sires. However, when going back to the dogs on this list from the 50s, we also need to take into account that the #s competing were not as large as those in later years. By the 70s and 80s the # of entries had grown dramatically.

Top Producing Sires of QAA
1 AFC HOLWAY BARTY OS 2 /22/1971 Male 42 AllAge Offspring
2 AFC YANKEE'S SMOKE'N RED DEVIL OS 1 /18/1978 Male 37 AllAge Offspring
3 NAFC-FC TOPBRASS COTTON OS FDHF 7 /6 /1978 Male 36 AllAge Offspring
4 AFC EMBERAIN RUGBY WCX OS FDHF 3 /16/1999 Male 27 AllAge Offspring
5 FC WRAITHS HTR MN BRO MACDHUIBH OS 10/14/1995 Male 26 AllAge Offspring
6 FC-AFC CHIEF SANDS OS FDHF 12/3 /1966 Male 22 AllAge Offspring
7 FC-AFC TANGELO'S SIDE KICK OS FDHF 5 /23/1981 Male 22 AllAge Offspring
8 FC-AFC GLENHAVEN HTRS MN BARONET MH OS FDHF 6 /15/1996 Male 19 AllAge Offspring
9 FC-AFC TIGATHOE'S KIOWA II OS FDHF 11/11/1971 Male 18 AllAge Offspring
10 FC-AFC WINDBREAKERS MIGHTY MO OS FDHF 3 /28/1983 Male 16 AllAge Offspring
11 WRAITH'S DUNCAN MH *** OS 10/14/1984 Male 16 AllAge Offspring

I think our hope springs eternal because those who have played the game realize that there are many other good performers out there who just won't quite make it into a lot of the statistics.

(Sorry for the crummy formatting, the cut 'n paste didn't retain the formatting.)
 
#101 · (Edited)
I owned a QAA male sired by Tigathoe's KiowaII. He was a big, proud looking male like his sire. He won a Q at Niagra Falls with Pro Bill Little handling. I also owned a Barty male that was very different in looks from my Kiowa male. My Barty dog was much smaller, lighter boned and faster. But, the best male Golden I'd ever seen running All Age was Wyngate's Sungold Sundance who was FC AFC at 4 years(amateur trained) running against Texas and Louisiana dogs and Pros.
 
#103 ·
Jennifer, Kippy is the frontrunnerto get a nice dominant male that acts like he has a little Carolina Leg Hound in him!

Earl, I agree. So many great field Golden's from central Illinois from the likes of Harold Bruninga, Jackie Mertins as well as the Miners and Sharon Long. Wisconsin and Minnesota both have had many great Golden's ran by both amateurs and pros.

Don't forget the St. Louis area and Golden history. Paul Bakewell had several Golden's that made it to the top. The Wallace's also had a number of nice dogs. They were also influential in the Busch area, home of the most NRCs.


And don't forget the Wallace's Retriever Hall of Fame trainer that always had nice Golden's. His nickname was the "kid". Most of us know him as Tommy Sorenson.

I would also add Stoneybrooks Jersey Devil. I really liked every one of his pups!
 
#104 ·
Nancy Miner was one if the original Dick Kern's groupies that I wrote in a few paragraphs back . She had Bonnie Brooks Danny, I think he had 8 or 9AA points. Nancy (used to be Carlsen) started about the time I had Goldens mid 1960s trained with her, co owned a dog with her. Remind her famous obedience daughter Bridget Carlsen she used to be in diapers when they visited our house. They lived in a North Chicago suburb at the time. My thoughts were way back 1950s, 1940's, And where it all started from Mississippi Valley to Tri State to Wisconsin Amateur Midwest Field Trial club, oldest clubs in the Nation. Others like Harold, Sharon, Jackie, all great contributors but more contemporary. And John dont forget yourself!!
 
#107 ·
The first Field Trial Golden I ever saw being trained was Superior's Chevas,MH,*** owned by Tom Colstad. He was my neighbor and my teacher in HS.
I used to go and watch him train with Ed Shoenbach(spelling?).
I saw them run at the Manitowoc FT club my senior yr.
Vern Weber was fun to listen talk of the Goldens he had.
Sue
I just realized I dated myself. Crap!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#113 ·
Sue have known you for awhile and this small World is getting scrary just did some PM with Nancy Pals. My brother taught at Tomahawk H.S English and Drama where he worked with Tom Colstad. Jerry lived in Merrill and Tom lived in Irma, you were his neighbor? I used to hunt and train dogs with Eddie Shoebach, who was also friends with Judy and Jim Powers. Mary Howley would come up to Eddie's place to train occasionly. My brother and I bought a Brittany from Tom too. Trained at his place a few times. I know except for Chevas, he was one heck of a Golden and rember him Well. I could fill a book withVern Weber's stories. His history with Goldens in the Wisconsin area is very well documented. His passing a few years ago left a void that cannot be replaced. I will not second hand his stories, but, the GRCA should contact maybe Brian Hartfield who has Webshire Kennels about Vern's Golden era. Many only know vern as the owner of FC/AFC Webshire Honest Abe, National Finalist, no 2 Derby list dog. There were Golden FC and Afc before Abe. He is sometimes over looked in the contributions he made to the field Goldens. Small World can't handle much more.
 
#108 · (Edited)
Gerry, Thanks for your post #100! Love your thoughts on this stuff.

This whole discussion has me thinking about "good nicks". Could one look at past successes "nicks" and predict future ones? I don't know...

Just thinking out loud, but could one go back and look at the successful "nicks" that make up a Cotton, a Duncan, a Rip, a Boomer (all closely tied to English genes) and create a new "good nick" ?

Food for thought...

edit: to clarify, could we go to current English FTCH of lines that match those of proven lines that led to Barty and his offspring, and mix those with the American lines that made good "nicks" with the English. Clear as mud?
 
#109 ·
Here one for ya Jen,great lady of the past,I`m sure someone will figger the dog.Jim Photograph Snapshot Adaptation Portrait
 
#110 ·
Sorry about the quality,these have been in a closet for who knows how long.I`m not real good on this computer but will have some more of the old days comin up soon.
 
#117 ·
Glenda might like to help you clean that closet out! :)
 
#111 ·
Guess it's time to stick some Canuck voice in here also. So far haven't seen Devil mentioned who seems to show up even more than Cotton and is a great sire of numerous great dogs.
And I have to include Sprint in there who has donated to the game also but it seems like some of the top producing females are being left out of this. Takes a good stud but with out out a great female they would never throw anything.
My hat goes off to the breeders who take a chance with there females to try the unknown studs who end up making them great. Maybe some day we will find that perfect combination in an out cross or a line breeding that will produce the next really great Goldens with no health problems to go and beat those black dogs.

Dave Beacock
 
#114 ·
This is all very interesting. In order to keep everything straight, I might have to make a giant wall map of the pedigrees and how they interconnect.

In 1983, I asked my neighbour if he knew of any Golden puppies for sale. I knew he competed in obedience and we wanted a dog that would be a good family member but had a brain. I did not know Field Trials existed. That is a SHAME because the puppy we got through his recommendation was brilliant, birdy, had an utterly bomb proof temperament and was exceedingly handsome. He had no health issues either and lived to 15. Pedigree: http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=53600
Damn!

Here is something I heard this past fall at a Trial in Michigan. I cannot vouch for the veracity but it is an interesting thought. The gist was that some serious, well known, old time show breeders are very disturbed about where the show lines have gone. They are concerned that the dogs have become overdone- too much coat, too much bone and not enough brain. Their solution: breed back to well structured field males who actually fit the breed standard.
Hmmmmm.

Medie
 
#119 ·
My last Golden Litter was bred in 1980 AFC Wildfire of Riverview CDX to my Marshlands Lucky Trick OD ( a Barty bitch) I kept one of the pups trough a divorce and started to train him at 3 1/2 years old pointed QAA he lived until he was 16. I don't have a dog in this fight, but told some folks back then Barty was going to be bred into many generations and in the future it would be hard to find a non Barty in a field pedigree.

I told the folks back then, when I went black, that I would find the most prominent field dogs and breed them to the most prominent obedience, rather then try to make another dual champion. I bred that bitch to a top Golden Show dog at the time and the pups were just about useless as far as field ability goes, pretty dogs, prepotent sires, but not even a good nose. Trixie was out of Barty and a Chief Sands bitch, but, the conformation dogs were so prepotent, produce themselves, the field wasn't even evident. Not much of a sampling I guess, but, an observation and followed that breeding to the second generation and it did not change.
They might be on to something M. Robinson!
 
#115 ·
There will be a photo of Chevas (Tom Colstad) in the Mar/Apr GRNews in the first of a series on Golden Finalists in the Master Nationals.

I have on my list to see what I can track down re Vern's Goldens. My understanding (and if it has been mentioned earlier on this thread, I apologize) is that when Vern's vision started fading, he went to black Labs as he could see them better in the field.

Glenda
 
#118 ·
Yes, his wife Ethel died a number of years ago and he had no children, a nephew or two. Just don't want to lessen his contribution Brian bought his place from from Vern and I am sure he has some background.
I knew some of the dogs from Sam Gunnerman's Coin of Copper that they had to run behind a car before they ran him to Tioga Joe and Sandstorm. I donot feel qualified , as many of these were second stories.
Brian and Lisa Hartfield would be your best bet of hands on information. Most are deceased that knew his Golden Background. Vern had many funny stories. Jackie might have some background? Maybe Mary Howley and Mickey Strandberg too. I was at my daughters a short time ago and read the current GRCA magazine ,wow, compared to 30 years ago the last time I was a member of GRCA.
 
#116 ·
I apologize for not reading back farther or I would have realized that Devil had already been mentioned numerous times,
On the untitled studs I will say when we used Mioaks Shaken Jake he was a great junior dog but had no titles to bad we didn't know much about thyroid problems or he might have gone on to be a really great stud. He was the sire of Sprint who when bred to Razz produced some great dogs in Canada and the US.
I think some of the dogs that only have a Canadian FC or AFC are forgotten about unfortunately also as are the dogs that only run Hunt Tests although myself I do want to see a strong field background in there pedigree. I thank Mike Ducross for doing what he did with Sprint and now he has another great dog Push maybe not an American FC AFC but he the only Golden ever titled in field, obedience and show.
I've head more than one Pro say that there are more FC and AFC dogs sitting on someones couch or in a duck blind that we will never see.
If we listen to every gloomer and doomer out there we probably wouldn't have bred to a lot of the studs or bitches, you here so and so though bad hips or bad front ends or bad eyes or cancer or thyroid problems or epilepsy,
It would be great if every dog bred had or never will have health problems, but at least there is the testing out there so we can avoid some. Thankfully something like this keeps are eyes open and makes us aware of some of the fantastic studs that have been around and hopefully keeps our minds open to look to see who might be the next really great stud but we don't all want to use him or the gene pool could get even smaller.

Dave Beacock
 
#121 ·
I had the honor and the pleasure of judging June Atkinson's Holway Corbiere in the Shooting Times Cold Game Test at Sandringham in the early 80s in the UK. He won first place and was an amazing dog. June, who is now deceased was one of the best dog trainers I have ever known. I had the good fortune to be able to go to training sessions with June several times over the years during visits to England and l learned a good bit from it. Her son Robert is still running Holway kennel. Considering the impact that Holway Barty had on the field-bred Goldens, one might look back to his source for potential sires.

Here is a good article on June by Graham Cox, who was one of the four judges for the 2012 IGL Retriever championship. Graham also is a great cheerleader for Goldens, and has done quite well in field trials with them.

http://www.holwaygoldens.com/holway-goldens/june-atkinson/

Here is a good article by Graham Cox on the history of Goldens from UK pesrpective:

http://www.holwaygoldens.com/gundogs/
 
#124 ·
Yea it is Torchy,the pic was from 70`s and really don`t know what dog ,Kinda thought someone might Jim
 
#125 ·
Heres another Jen,lets see if anyone around recognizes this. Jim Photograph People Art Family Vintage clothing
 
#126 ·
In the U.S., we have had Rocky, Thistle and Cain have titles in three venues---no OTCH in those days, but it is my understanding that a UD in Canada gives the dog an OTCH title. Thistle also had a TD title.

Have had CH-AFC Lorelei's Golden Rockbottom UD; CH AFC Riverview's Chickasaw Thistle UD TD; Dual CH Ronakers Novato Cain CD; and Hondo-- CH AFC Honor's Dorado of Spindrift who did not have any obedience titles. Hondo is going to be featured in the Mar/Apr issue of the GRNs.

Pat Sadler would probably be able to recognize the Golden with Torch---possibly Elmer or Tuppee?

Pat Quinn just finished organizing a list of all the Golden conformation Champions who have their MH titles which I just downloaded. It continues to grow from the original one I have so that is a huge plus.

Glenda
 
#128 · (Edited)
Haaa!You seem very much into the breed and I love to see that!!Kinda why I`m doin this.I`m gonna hold off on the answer but a little hint,I can`t believe there are no canadians that don`t recognize this....... Jim
 
#129 ·
I lived down the street from Colstad before he moved to Irma.
I 'll not tell the yr.!
Ethel Weber also had the best chocolate-chip cookies too which she brought to trials. Remember?
Mary H. also had Goldens at one time.
Where's Caroline? She's a lurker.
Sue
 
#131 ·
I am out of touch and entertaining myself with a foot of snow on the ground, just trying to bring out the Golden people as the field dogs get short changed in the field world. There some extremely knowledgeable Golden folks that lurk here.
Yup remember Ethel Weber's cookies. So my brother starting teaching probably after you graduated in 1999? Right!
 
#135 · (Edited)
I'll tell ya what: this thread has really made my dog's pedigree come to life for me and I really appreciate it! Now I look at the famous names and have a story and history to tie to that name. How cool!!! Flyer is curled in a ball on her cushy bed by the couch right now - I look at her and see a universe of great storied dogs! So neat.

Special thanks to Glenda for sending me sooo much information to read - still not through it all. And all of you great Golden folks who added to this thread.

One neat thing I realized tonight, was that John Gunn - owner/handler of Stanley Steamer - apparently imported a pup from Britain called Osmington Anya. She was then bred to Topbrass Cotton (1/2 Uk via Barty) to create Anya's Brassy Boss "Buck", also owned by John. Buck was then bred to Sungold Superbrass (line bred on Barty on both sides) to create Stanley's Dam. That's a lot of Barty and a lot of UK. There's a lot of Treunair blood in Stanley's ped, too. Maybe I should call John and pick his brain!
 
#136 ·
I'll tell ya what: this thread has really made my dog's pedigree come to life for me and I really appreciate it! Now I look at the famous names and have a story and history to tie to that name. How cool!!! Flyer is curled in a ball on her cushy bed by the couch right now - I look at her and see a universe of great storied dogs! So neat.

Special thanks to Glenda for sending me sooo much information to read - still not through it all. And all of you great Golden folks who added to this thread.

One neat thing I realized tonight, was that John Gunn - owner/handler of Stanley Steamer - apparently imported a pup from Britain called Osmington Anya. She was then bred to Topbrass Cotton (1/2 Uk via Barty) to create Anya's Brassy Boss "Buck", also owned by John. Buck was then bred to Sungold Superbrass (line bred on Barty on both sides) to create Stanley's Dam. That's a lot of Barty and a lot of UK. There's a lot of Treunair blood in Stanley's ped, too. Maybe I should call John and pick his brain!
Not a bad idea... But you might want to get Janice on the phone too, a ton of dog knowledge there...
 
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