FT Goldens then and now =Barty?

[Glenda Brown]

Jennifer, there are more articles than what I mentioned. Write me privately re some that would interest you, give me your e-mail address, and I will see what I can do.

Helen---sounds like a great idea and I am doing a lot of articles aimed for the Archives re trying to pull up info on some of the top field Goldens. What has been dismaying is how hard it has been to track down information other than in bits and pieces. If anyone has anything, would love to get my hands on it. Will bring up your suggestion to the powers that be and see what response I get. My interest is only in the field Goldens----but if anyone were interested in conformation and some of the early top obedience Goldens, a lot of that information is there for the digging out in the old GRNews. Barb Branstad has been living in Kinko's copying info from the very early GRNs and sending it on to me. She has definitely been putting in the hours on this.

Actually, at the moment on working on CH-AFC Lorelei's Golden Rockbottom UD and hope to put it together with an interview on his breeder and the dogs in his kennels, Reinhard Bischoff. Hondo will be in the Mar-Apr '13 issue. Have other articles ready to go re Kate of Rocky-Vue, Squawkie Hill Dapper Dexter, Oakcreek Van Cleve, Beautywood's Tamarack and Shelter Cove Beauty with additional ones in the pipeline. These have all been field champions as well as one won the Canadian National and two won the US National Open.

In addition, am working on the history of Goldens who were Finalists in the Master Nationals. Tremendous thanks goes to Bruce Bachert who saw my lament on RTF about needing information----I have a large file box full of the data he sent on to me. He has proven to be a tremendous asset. What is proving very hard here is getting photos of some of the early Golden competitors.

Again--a cry from the heart---any bits and pieces of info you can send to me, old photos, personal stories about any of the old field Goldens, I would love to have them.

Thanks.

Glenda

[Jennifer Henion]

No idea how old Mike Lardy is, but I wonder if his father is still alive? I'll bet he is a wealth of information, since he had Handjem kennels with several great old goldies. Plus you have to think he ran and trained with any other great goldens of that time period.

[wayne anderson]

Earl, you finally "flushed" me out after reading these responses. Bought my first Golden pup from Phil Uehling (sp?) in Onalaska, WI, in late 1960s. Kinike ("kin of Nike?"was Phil's kennel name, my pup's mother was "Nike," I remember. Always liked the Stilrovin line, and Vern Weber's Chief Sands (Bozo). Later bought Mioaks Prairie Storm (Stormy) from Vern Weber when his eyesight was failing and he could not see Stormy at distance on blinds. That is when Vern went to blacks, I think (easier to see). I've trained long enough (still do) with Darrell Frisbie to remember Ben ( FC/AFC Benjamin Rajah Frisbie) and his national derby champ Buddy. My thoughts on today's Goldens and field trials: Small Golden gene pool, but we are making progress. Don't see many slow-pokes or "land eye dominant" dogs any more.) Modern advances with e-collars, etc., have helped tremendously in training all breeds. (Yeah, I remember training in the "old days," not good). Training still fun, trials not so much--to damn competitive, cut-throat, and not enough true amateur trainers. (Look at set-ups by some of today's amateur judges, too many reflect training set-ups by their professional trainers). Sorry, enuf ranting...

[Criquetpas]

Wayne thanks hope your posts help. For those of you that don't know Wayne, he, Darell Frisbie, are probably some of the few Amateur trainers of Field Trial Goldens that have never abandoned the breed in the Country today. I salute them

[Jennifer Henion]

Earl, you finally "flushed" me out after reading these responses. Bought my first Golden pup from Phil Uehling (sp?) in Onalaska, WI, in late 1960s. Kinike ("kin of Nike?"was Phil's kennel name, my pup's mother was "Nike," I remember. Always liked the Stilrovin line, and Vern Weber's Chief Sands (Bozo). Later bought Mioaks Prairie Storm (Stormy) from Vern Weber when his eyesight was failing and he could not see Stormy at distance on blinds. That is when Vern went to blacks, I think (easier to see). I've trained long enough (still do) with Darrell Frisbie to remember Ben ( FC/AFC Benjamin Rajah Frisbie) and his national derby champ Buddy. My thoughts on today's Goldens and field trials: Small Golden gene pool, but we are making progress. Don't see many slow-pokes or "land eye dominant" dogs any more.) Modern advances with e-collars, etc., have helped tremendously in training all breeds. (Yeah, I remember training in the "old days," not good). Training still fun, trials not so much--to damn competitive, cut-throat, and not enough true amateur trainers. (Look at set-ups by some of today's amateur judges, too many reflect training set-ups by their professional trainers). Sorry, enuf ranting...

Great post, Wayne! Thanks! Do you have any comparisons of 1960s line to todays model? Are they similar or very different? Glenda sent me some photos of Stilrovin's Rip Tide, which look VERY much like my current pup of this pedigree: www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=508101 She has a very classic look. Would be interested in your views of major changes to the field golden in the last 50 years!

Thanks again for contributing,
Jennifer

[Sue Kiefer]

I know that both Morgan and Mickey are lurkers. Come on you guys speak up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sue

[Jennifer Henion]

Glenda sent me an article interviewing John Unbehaun that helped answer some questions about the comparison of Then and Now:

Here is an excerpt:

Interviewer was Susan Kluesner

Q: What did those earlier Golden Retrievers look like compared to the field trial Goldens of today?

A:The goldens back in the early 1970s tended to be a little bigger, more of a golden color and a big blocky head. Seems to me when the Holway Barty puppies started to appear on the scene the speed of the field goldens picked up, but the size got smaller and the dogs got lighter in color. They also hunted in a quicker pattern. One of the fastest dogs I have trained with was Hawwkeye's Indean Red owned by Robert Von Hayden. He was about 45 pounds and faster than most labs. He was the first golden I saw that was of this whole new type of dog. But they would go all day long.

Q: Some people say these "old" goldens could not be competitive in today's field trials. You trained and ran with these dogs (and said earlier in the interview that was he was still competing in OPen in 2003). Do you think that's true?

A: Certainly they could be competitive. No doubt about it. Marking is marking. Those early Goldens would be as competitive today as they were then. They were that good.

In the article John said he had trained with Mike Lardy, Jackie Mertens and Torch Flinn among many other greats. Said when Lardy first started, he had a van full of four goldens that he competed with. He also said Topbrass Cotton was slow on returns!!

Great stuff!!! Thanks Glenda!

Jen

[Eric Johnson]

In the article John said he had trained with Mike Lardy, Jackie Mertens and Torch Flinn among many other greats. Said when Lardy first started, he had a van full of four goldens that he competed with. He also said Topbrass Cotton was slow on returns!!

I've heard that Cotton was two different dogs more or less. In his early years he was supposed to be as fast going out and back as any dog. However, as he aged, he slowed down.

I once overheard Mike L. say that Cotton was perhaps the best marking dog of his time. He related that once he ran an experiment at the 1st series of an open. He timed every dog from release to bird delivery of the last bird. While Cotton didn't dash out and back, he had the shortest total time because he went directly to each and every bird and never had to even indicate a hunt. He just went out and picked up the birds. At least that's the way I remember it but I wasn't directly involved in the conversation, merely listening.

[DoubleHaul]

I once overheard Mike L. say that Cotton was perhaps the best marking dog of his time. He related that once he ran an experiment at the 1st series of an open. He timed every dog from release to bird delivery of the last bird. While Cotton didn't dash out and back, he had the shortest total time because he went directly to each and every bird and never had to even indicate a hunt. He just went out and picked up the birds. At least that's the way I remember it but I wasn't directly involved in the conversation, merely listening.

I heard Mike tell that story at a seminar in WI ten years or so ago. Someone asked about Cotton being slow and that was his response.

[Gerry Clinchy]

It is kind of interesting to look at the connections in the pedigrees that have been mentioned. I got my first Golden (from a puppy farm) in 1968, and didn't start really learning some about field Goldens until just before I got a Ki son in 1975. Barty was whelped in 1971, so his record was already speaking for itself by the time I started my "involvement".

My original "impression" was that Barty was supposed to add "speed" to the equation, but I was later told (never saw Barty, so don't know for sure) that it was for his marking ability that he became sought after. It was discussed back then whether the English breeders had introduced some Spaniel into their Goldens along the way, which was allowed in the UK if certain rules are followed & a certain number of generations are then bred true. Maybe someone from the UK can step in and explain that process. I saw photos of a Barty litter, bred by Torch Flinn, around 1975 where the pups had lots of freckles on their faces; and I heard of white from other breedings. This, I suspect, is what led to the thought that some spaniel (maybe Brittany?) had been incorporated somewhere along the line.

Bonnie Brooks Red and BB Elmer were full brothers, though from different breedings. When you look at their sire's pedigree (Tuffy), he was already 1/2 English in a combo of Holway & Stubblesdown.

Carma Futhey had also imported a full sister to Barty, Holway Joyful***(whelped 1969, 2 years earlier than Barty). Joyful was bred to BB Red in 1974 & 1977, so the offspring then had a pedigree that was 3/4 English in the first generation! And those offspring were quite accomplished in field trials in the US and Canada.

We also sometimes forget that Misty's Sungold Lad also had English ancestry, http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=547, His sire was English. I didn't look it up, but my recollection is that Lad was the winningest FT Golden until Cotton came along. When we look at Cotton's pedigree we see Barty as the sire and Elmer (litterbro to Red) still visible in the first 3 generations. Perhaps that combination of genes was a particularly good click. The Elmer/Chick offspring (through Ki, litterbro to Quar) was also known for being extremely good markers (as mentioned by Bon). Mercedes Hitchcock's Skylab Argus of Belvedere*** also had a somewhat similar pedigree to Cotton's with Barty as sire & Quar bringing in Elmer, and the further addition of Chief Sands as well on the dam side.

It seems that blending the imported Barty with North American stock whose UK connections were much farther back had some kind of "magic" to it. May be that's why there is some renewed interest in importation again now?

Also interesting is that this advantage of combining No American and UK field genes may be the root of a trend of recent years of other European countries importing No American field genes to blend with their European gene pool? It seems (just to my casual observation) that while importation is a two-way thing with Golden field genes, it is not so with conformation. UK/Euro dogs are imported to No America, but I have not noticed equal traffic going the other way. Since I do not deal much with the conformation lines, my observation there could be superficial.

It is pretty difficult to find a field trial Golden in No America today that does NOT have Barty in their pedigree somewhere.