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Silver "Labs" and AKC

28K views 91 replies 39 participants last post by  Hunt'EmUp 
#1 ·
This weekend at an agility trial a woman comes up to me to talk about Labradors. She runs a BFL and I run CFL. She starts telling me she is looking at getting another puppy and would like to run it in agility. She then shows me two pictures of silver "Lab" puppies and tells me she does not know which one to get. I tell her they are not a recognized color. She tells me they are registered as chocolate, but in a couple years the silver color will be recognized and then they will be registered as silver. Has anyone else heard this? She also told me they are DNA tested pure Labs and have all the health clearances. I did not get the name of the breeder, but I told her to go to the shelter and get a puppy, but she told me silver is in high demand and she is going to pay $1,200. for this puppy. I have read stories about these breeders, but is the AKC or Lab parent club really going to recognize this color or is this another selling point??? I know most field people are not interested in silver, but how do the show people feel about the color? Doesn't the parent club make the rules and do both show and field people have to agree on a change?



Terri
 
#2 ·
Isn't it crazy people will pay more for silver than chocolate and they'll pay more for red than yellow?
 
#3 ·
#4 ·
Boy does this sound familiar! In 1991 a guy who bought a started Lab from me told me he was going to get a silver and then the same conversation....in two years they would be a registered color...I offered to bet...he did not take me on..and here we are today...round and round!
 
#5 ·
A part of me wants to see her this weekend and give her a print out from the AKC Retriever Labrador Clubs web site, but I might feel better to just bet her big money. I hate to see people get burned, but sometimes when I have tried to help I just feel the heat. Most people have to learn the hard way.

Terri
 
#8 ·
Registering "silvers" as chocolates is misrepesentation. It is not a muted chocolate...as stated on the LRC website, the general concensus is that they were cross-bred with Weims and are not purebred.

There is no genetic test avaialble yet to test a dog for purity--we can't run blood samples and say this is a Lab, this is a crossbred, this is a boxer, etc. I read somewhere that this testing is on the horizon, but have no idea if/when it will really happen.

AKC does not monitor these types of things. It is up to the parent club of the breed. If someone marks "chocolate" on the registration papers, there is no way for AKC to know it isn't a chocolate.

Meredith
 
#11 ·
Was judging a junior HT a couple of years ago. Guy brought what he said was a "silver lab" to the line. Sorry. I know what labs are supposed to look like, and I know what Wiemers look like. If there was any lab blood in that dog it did not get to his body structure, his head or his eyes. And the dog had no clue what to do with a bird. That was the only time I was happy to fail a dog. It did not belong there. But that did not stop the guy from trying to sell the dog's "qualities" to anybody gullible enough to listen.
 
#13 ·
The show people feel the same about it as anyone who cares about the breed does... that akc really dropped the ball when they went out to examine the kennel producing them and allowing them to be registered as chocolate. Anyone with any ability to see type can see the weim in these dogs and not just the color.

The cockapoo people have been saying they're going to be an akc recognized breed since the 70s... That'll happen before the LRC recognizes silver labs.
 
#14 · (Edited)
If I understand this correctly..., the AKC visited a "silver lab" breeder and after examining their "SILVER" color decided that they could be registered as chocolate? Ahh, silver/chocolate same color, apples/oranges same thing? That makes as much sense as American politics in 2013! Slightly off topic, when my dad was a kid he wanted a paint/pinto quarter horse, he had a palomino, so one day after school he grabbed a can of brown and black paint and commenced to "paint" himself a pinto. More I think of it maybe it's not off topic, looked like a pinto but sure as he!! wasn't ;);)
 
#15 ·
May be a bit off the subject, but I know someone who purchased a female black lab puppy from a litter sired by a "Silver" lab. She thought this was a big deal to brag about. The dog is almost 100 lbs and is very tall. I've not measured her, but I'd guess at least 28" at the withers. Very leggy... looks like mixed with Great Dane! I also met a "silver" lab puppy this past summer. Owner told me he had to be on a waiting list for 3 years to get a "silver" from the breeder. I bet for how much he spent he probably could have actually got a dog with pretty good breeding.... Don't even get me started ranting about the price and poor breeding of doodles!!!
 
#16 ·
If you repeat a lie enough, people will start to believe it.

Copy this, and paste it in a google search. That'll bring up all the "silver" Lab breeders that you would ever want to find.

In 1987 we conducted an inquiry into the breeding of the litters that contained the dogs that were registered as silver and one of our representatives was sent to observe several of the dogs that had been registered as silver. Color photographs of these dogs were forwarded to the office of the American Kennel Club where the staff of the AKC and the representative of the Labrador Retriever Club of America examined them. Both parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however both parties felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard describes chocolate as ranging in shade from Sedge to Chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate than as silver."

Written by Robert Young of the AKC 3/27/00
Robert Young, is/was a photographer for the AKC.
 
#17 · (Edited)
If you enjoy the person, don't criticize the dog. Most people who love a dog love it in spite of someone's expert opinion, not because of it.

Lord knows it's true for me. I could rattle off a million faults, some that I even agree with. Dog people are pretty darn critical, and everyone's an expert.

i have decided to spend less time criticizing other dogs, less time defending mine, and more time on world peace.

Silver Lab? That's nice. Dorkie-poo? Sounds interesting.
 
#30 ·
That attitude may cause you less stress in the short run, but not standing for principles will cost you big time in the long run.

Can you say "Universal Health Care sounds nice." or " We can't all have a job." or "Sure you can have my guns."

All it takes for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing!

As a Lab breeder I say Silver Labs are the product of evil and not to be tolerated let alone condoned.

Swack
 
#20 ·
AKC is allowing them to be papered as chocolate. The governing bodies have accepted them as purebred labrador retrievers. If you have a problem with "silver" labs your problem is with the AKC and LRC.

There was a guy that sold PET ROCKS. Yes, pet rocks. I don't hate him because he found buyers and made millions of $$, I'm just jealous I wasn't smart enough to do it. Then there is the Sham Wow, Thighmaster, and the most recent craze "Longitude" pills...............buyers are the only way sellers are successfull.
 
#22 ·
I understand your view but there is no difference. The breeders are saying they are purebred Labs and the AKC and LRC are allowing them to be registered as such. Therefore the AKC and LRC are aknowledging they are purebred. I don't like it any more than you but the failure is with them not the breeders.
 
#23 ·
but the failure is with them not the breeders.
The breeders are the ones breeding FOR a color that doesn't exist in this breed and then falsifying the papers (by both registering them as chocolate and really registering them period), they very much share the fault. As well as the ignorant public who gets all starry eyed wanting something "different" or "rare", and not doing the proper breed research ahead of time.
 
#24 ·
Read Fran's comments on the LRC web site again. The LRC does not, repeat, does not recognize what is advertised as a "silver lab". The AKC did drop the ball on this. If you register it as a "chocolate" yet advertise and sell it as a "silver"---says something right there re the breeders. As to the color being recognized or accepted by the LRC in the relatively near future, make it a big bet! There are three colors: black, yellow, and chocolate.

Glenda
 
#26 ·
There's lots of breeds that carry the dilution gene. It didn't have to be a Weim outcross.

And, it doesn't matter what breed it was.
What matters, is that Labs are not supposed to carry the dilution gene.

They aren't supposed to have tan points, ticking, brindling, or polka dots either.
 
#27 ·
There's lots of breeds that carry the dilution gene. It didn't have to be a Weim.

And, it doesn't matter what breed it was.
What matters, is that Labs are not supposed to carry the dilution gene.

They aren't supposed to have tan points, ticking, brindling, or polka dots either.
Precisely....so these "breeders" of silver labs, they're selling pups and taking deposits before the pups are even born. They seem pretty certain the dilution gene will manifest in the upcoming litter....seems a little strange to me.
 
#32 ·
I feel bad for the Labs, with popularity, comes recklessness. I hope you are not going to have to watch , as did the Irish Setter folks, the downfall of a great breed due to breeding for color and total disregard of huntablity. And I know, "we will never let that happen " will ring out, as I am sure it did with them.
 
#33 ·
There have been many topics about Silver Labradors that the OP might search for here on RTF. This was one of the more in depth ones that might give the OP more background. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?39324-quot-Silver-quot-lab-volunteers

There is a rebuttal to Fran Smith's LRC article that some might be interested in if they are open minded enough to hear out both sides of this debate. http://www.labradorcouncil.com/lrc-position.html
Other insightful positions on that site as well that don't quite fit the rabid, uneducated, puppy mill, hillbilly mentality that so many naysayers attribute to all those who are supportive of these Labradors. There are even comments there about the importance of retrieving instinct, maintaining a working retriever, and health testing. Sentiment that people here would also stand for.
It appears that there are more and more who are working to produce trainable, well-rounded, healthy Labradors. I'm not saying that all "silver" Lab breeders are doing right by their dogs, heaven knows many are still just breeding the color for the money and hardly know the head from the tail of a dog. Yet, I suppose that would be true for the majority of back yard "breeders," regardless of what color their Labs might be.
 
#34 ·
There are three colors of Labradors. Black, Yellow, and Chocolate.

If the AKC says the gray color is considered chocolate, then why do all the gray Lab folks keep fighting...why not just call them chocolate? Why insist on a special color name all their own? I don't see the folks with "fox red" yellows trying to claim they are a separate color from yellow?
 
#36 ·
There are three colors of Labradors. Black, Yellow, and Chocolate.

If the AKC says the gray color is considered chocolate, then why do all the gray Lab folks keep fighting...why not just call them chocolate? Why insist on a special color name all their own? I don't see the folks with "fox red" yellows trying to claim they are a separate color from yellow?
two reasons:

1) $$$$
2) See #1
 
#43 · (Edited)
Whether or not there was a cross to elkhounds in Europe, the d gene locus (responsible for dilution of chocolate to silver in Weims and silver "Labs") is not the gene that gives elkhounds their silvery sable wolf-like coloring, that is the a^w gene (agouti-wolf). Elkhounds are wild-type (referred to as agouti) in coat color, dilution is most definitely not a wild-type coloration.

The information on the website you cite seems to predate identification of and the test for the dilution gene. So, to summarize, the dilute gene now found in a few AKC registered as Lab lines did NOT come from Norwegian elkhounds in the 1940s!
 
#39 · (Edited)
REPEAT ... They are not falsifying the registration. re read Copterdocs post #16. The AKC said to register them as chocolate.

Sharon, I don't think they are trying to get their "OWN" color, they just advertise as silvers. The "red" folk don't don't argue about yellow/red because red is an accepted shade of yellow. However they do advertise as "red" or even "white" vs yellow and will charge a premium for those dogs. even in a litter with both the standard "yellow" and the "red" the reds cost more.\

I actually just looked into a litter and one of them turned out to be red. The breeder was "taking bids" on that one. This is not a "backyard" breeding , titled sire dam and all the tests.
 
#40 ·
REPEAT ... They are not falsifying the registration. re read Copterdocs post #16. The AKC said to register them as chocolate.

Sharon, I don't think they are trying to get their "OWN" color, they just advertise as silvers. The "red" folk don't don't argue about yellow/red because red is an accepted shade of yellow. However they do advertise as "red" or even "white" vs yellow and will charge a premium for those dogs. even in a litter with both the standard "yellow" and the "red" the reds cost more.
Yes, many people are falsifying registration purposefully. I also stated that its the AKC who is allowing, and in fact suggesting they do this. It's a huge contradiction, because AKC states that NO COAT COLORS other than black, yellow, and chocolate will be accepted for registration. They also suggest silver labs go to pet homes without registration papers in order to discourage this breed flaw.

So, it's like AKC is saying two contradictory things. It's just weird to me. Perhaps I'm just not a huge fan of diluting the breed for the sake of a fad.
 
#41 ·
If they don't want their own color, then why do so many of them tell buyers that AKC will recognize the silver color soon? That is not going to happen. Between the parent club, who's guidelines AKC sticks to, and AKC calling them chocolate (which was an admitted error, but once done was done), it's a done deal that silver will not ever be an option on registration papers. Yet the "breeders" continue to spread this misinformation.

As for the color, while it may well be that it can crop up within purebred Labs, I also used to live close to the original source of the controversy, and there was most certainly at least one Weimaraner there...which mysteriously disappeared around the time AKC came to do their inspection. So....while some may well be crop-outs from purebred lines, not all are. Plus, knowing the person and their reputation, I wouldn't believe a word that they said. And having seen a multitude of the dogs they produced in that area, most looked far more like Weims than Labs, in head, eye color, ears, and body.
 
#42 ·
My sister has 2 silver Labs and is a case study for people that disagree with luvalab's posts (especially #35). What am I going to do, "unfriend" her because I disagree with her choice of pet? Her first silver is actually a dilute black, or charcoal-colored dog, now 12. No real beef with that one or how she got it as the dog is a rescue, and even she calls her a Lab x Weim cross because that's what she looks like. She got her at 5 mos. I've told her about the controversy surrounding them and even pointed out some of the threads on this board and elsewhere. To give you an idea of how much of an impression that information made on her, a year ago she bought one of those "evil" overpriced silver Labs. Even though she looked online to find it, her reason for wanting one was that she didn't care if it was a mutt, she likes the one she has so much she wanted another.

Fast forward to now, her puppy is absolutely one of the sweetest Labs you could ever meet. But at just 8 mos. he was diagnosed with such horrific, crippling dysplasia in both hips and elbows that he's doomed to living a life of pain. He can't run and play like other dogs his age. He can barely negotiate steps. He also has a host of auto immune problems (things that don't normally show up in young dogs). My sister claims the breeder said the parents had hips xrayed, but not only did she never get papers, the papers this breeder did provide were ACA or one of those other bogus registries. When she went to pick the puppy up (at 5 wks.) she was not allowed inside the house, nor would they show her either parent.

She's furious and naively thought she could sue the breeder to make things right so she started looking online to see if they'd moved because....surprise, surprise! they've closed their website, email and phone number. In her crusade she found several other disgruntled buyers that like my sister, were no doubt well intentioned but totally clueless about what to look for in a purebred dog of any breed. The particular breeder that sold these damaged puppies, apparently does not register them with AKC, but the pups came with "papers" from one of those bogus registries, ACA I think, and none of the buyers knew enough to recognize this as a red flag. The pups had problems ranging from crippling genetic flaws like my sister's, and stuff like demodectic mange, etc., at least two people had pups that died of parvo within the first 4 days. One poor family took their pup in to be neutered and during the course of the surgery their vet found the pup had a vagina, too--it was a hermaphrodite!

None of these people, including my sister, are what I'd call dumb or uneducated--except about what's involved in producing a quality purebred puppy. Those of us in the small, rather insular world of competing our dogs and seeking the best when we breed a litter or look for a new pup, forget that very few pet owners know what a title is, much less the difference between registration papers from the AKC or the American Pet Dog Registry. "Breed standard" to most of the world, means a representative of that breed made famous by movies, TV or a viral youtube video. Genetic health issues are something us dog snobs like to talk about so we can trash other breeders. I could go on, but you get the point. Silver Labs are but the tip of the iceburg of the big bad world of things to sucker the average pet dog buyer out of his duckets.

I even felt a twinge of guilt, am I so techical and pedantic when I talk about what's involved in breeding that I make people, even my own sister, glaze over and tune me out?

 
#56 ·
My sister has 2 silver Labs and is a case study for people that disagree with luvalab's posts (especially #35). What am I going to do, "unfriend" her because I disagree with her choice of pet? Her first silver is actually a dilute black, or charcoal-colored dog, now 12. No real beef with that one or how she got it as the dog is a rescue, and even she calls her a Lab x Weim cross because that's what she looks like. She got her at 5 mos. I've told her about the controversy surrounding them and even pointed out some of the threads on this board and elsewhere. To give you an idea of how much of an impression that information made on her, a year ago she bought one of those "evil" overpriced silver Labs. Even though she looked online to find it, her reason for wanting one was that she didn't care if it was a mutt, she likes the one she has so much she wanted another.

Fast forward to now, her puppy is absolutely one of the sweetest Labs you could ever meet. But at just 8 mos. he was diagnosed with such horrific, crippling dysplasia in both hips and elbows that he's doomed to living a life of pain. He can't run and play like other dogs his age. He can barely negotiate steps. He also has a host of auto immune problems (things that don't normally show up in young dogs). My sister claims the breeder said the parents had hips xrayed, but not only did she never get papers, the papers this breeder did provide were ACA or one of those other bogus registries. When she went to pick the puppy up (at 5 wks.) she was not allowed inside the house, nor would they show her either parent.

She's furious and naively thought she could sue the breeder to make things right so she started looking online to see if they'd moved because....surprise, surprise! they've closed their website, email and phone number. In her crusade she found several other disgruntled buyers that like my sister, were no doubt well intentioned but totally clueless about what to look for in a purebred dog of any breed. The particular breeder that sold these damaged puppies, apparently does not register them with AKC, but the pups came with "papers" from one of those bogus registries, ACA I think, and none of the buyers knew enough to recognize this as a red flag. The pups had problems ranging from crippling genetic flaws like my sister's, and stuff like demodectic mange, etc., at least two people had pups that died of parvo within the first 4 days. One poor family took their pup in to be neutered and during the course of the surgery their vet found the pup had a vagina, too--it was a hermaphrodite!

None of these people, including my sister, are what I'd call dumb or uneducated--except about what's involved in producing a quality purebred puppy. Those of us in the small, rather insular world of competing our dogs and seeking the best when we breed a litter or look for a new pup, forget that very few pet ownersknow what a title is, much less the difference between registration papers from the AKC or the American Pet Dog Registry. "Breed standard" to most of the world, means a representative of that breed made famous by movies, TV or a viral youtube video. Genetic health issues are something us dog snobs like to talk about so we can trash other breeders. I could go on, but you get the point. Silver Labs are but the tip of the iceburg of the big bad world of things to sucker the average pet dog buyer out of his duckets.

I even felt a twinge of guilt, am I so techical and pedantic when I talk about what's involved in breeding that I make people, even my own sister, glaze over and tune me out?

Julie,

No one is suggesting that you "unfriend" your sister or even that you "hate" her dog. All I was saying is that we (those who own, breed, test, trial, love and know the Labrador retriever) should NOT act as if the so-called "silver, charcoal, or champagne Labs" are acceptable Labrador retrievers! According to the standard, colors other than Black, Yellow, or Chocolate are a disqualifying trait. Don't tell me about symantics; Silver isn't chocolate! Even if it was it is a very poor shade that should not be intentionally bred. If sold they should be sold without registration or at the very least with a limited registration so their "fault" will not be perpetuated.

I agree with you that the general public is ignorant about pure-bred dogs and what to look for when buying a dog. But, ignorance can be fixed! In this day of instant information at nearly everyone's fingertips there is no excuse for a person to not be able to get the facts. Those who don't are lazy and may be thinking with their "hearts" rather than using the brain god gave them. Don't feel guilty for your sister's poor choice. She made her own bed. I'm betting she may be willing to listen to you the next time she thinks about buying a dog!

Swack
 
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