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Thread: Silver "Labs" and AKC

  1. #41
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    If they don't want their own color, then why do so many of them tell buyers that AKC will recognize the silver color soon? That is not going to happen. Between the parent club, who's guidelines AKC sticks to, and AKC calling them chocolate (which was an admitted error, but once done was done), it's a done deal that silver will not ever be an option on registration papers. Yet the "breeders" continue to spread this misinformation.

    As for the color, while it may well be that it can crop up within purebred Labs, I also used to live close to the original source of the controversy, and there was most certainly at least one Weimaraner there...which mysteriously disappeared around the time AKC came to do their inspection. So....while some may well be crop-outs from purebred lines, not all are. Plus, knowing the person and their reputation, I wouldn't believe a word that they said. And having seen a multitude of the dogs they produced in that area, most looked far more like Weims than Labs, in head, eye color, ears, and body.
    Sharon Potter

    www.redbranchkennels.net

    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers...too many to list.

    Team Huntsmith

  2. #42
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    My sister has 2 silver Labs and is a case study for people that disagree with luvalab's posts (especially #35). What am I going to do, "unfriend" her because I disagree with her choice of pet? Her first silver is actually a dilute black, or charcoal-colored dog, now 12. No real beef with that one or how she got it as the dog is a rescue, and even she calls her a Lab x Weim cross because that's what she looks like. She got her at 5 mos. I've told her about the controversy surrounding them and even pointed out some of the threads on this board and elsewhere. To give you an idea of how much of an impression that information made on her, a year ago she bought one of those "evil" overpriced silver Labs. Even though she looked online to find it, her reason for wanting one was that she didn't care if it was a mutt, she likes the one she has so much she wanted another.

    Fast forward to now, her puppy is absolutely one of the sweetest Labs you could ever meet. But at just 8 mos. he was diagnosed with such horrific, crippling dysplasia in both hips and elbows that he's doomed to living a life of pain. He can't run and play like other dogs his age. He can barely negotiate steps. He also has a host of auto immune problems (things that don't normally show up in young dogs). My sister claims the breeder said the parents had hips xrayed, but not only did she never get papers, the papers this breeder did provide were ACA or one of those other bogus registries. When she went to pick the puppy up (at 5 wks.) she was not allowed inside the house, nor would they show her either parent.

    She's furious and naively thought she could sue the breeder to make things right so she started looking online to see if they'd moved because....surprise, surprise! they've closed their website, email and phone number. In her crusade she found several other disgruntled buyers that like my sister, were no doubt well intentioned but totally clueless about what to look for in a purebred dog of any breed. The particular breeder that sold these damaged puppies, apparently does not register them with AKC, but the pups came with "papers" from one of those bogus registries, ACA I think, and none of the buyers knew enough to recognize this as a red flag. The pups had problems ranging from crippling genetic flaws like my sister's, and stuff like demodectic mange, etc., at least two people had pups that died of parvo within the first 4 days. One poor family took their pup in to be neutered and during the course of the surgery their vet found the pup had a vagina, too--it was a hermaphrodite!

    None of these people, including my sister, are what I'd call dumb or uneducated--except about what's involved in producing a quality purebred puppy. Those of us in the small, rather insular world of competing our dogs and seeking the best when we breed a litter or look for a new pup, forget that very few pet ownersknow what a title is, much less the difference between registration papers from the AKC or the American Pet Dog Registry. "Breed standard" to most of the world, means a representative of that breed made famous by movies, TV or a viral youtube video. Genetic health issues are something us dog snobs like to talk about so we can trash other breeders. I could go on, but you get the point. Silver Labs are but the tip of the iceburg of the big bad world of things to sucker the average pet dog buyer out of his duckets.

    I even felt a twinge of guilt, am I so techical and pedantic when I talk about what's involved in breeding that I make people, even my own sister, glaze over and tune me out?

    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers since 1981

  3. #43
    Member AllAroundLab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    Looks like the silver color probably came from a Norwegian Elkhound outcrossing back in the 1940's:

    http://www.labbies.com/silver.htm
    Whether or not there was a cross to elkhounds in Europe, the d gene locus (responsible for dilution of chocolate to silver in Weims and silver "Labs") is not the gene that gives elkhounds their silvery sable wolf-like coloring, that is the a^w gene (agouti-wolf). Elkhounds are wild-type (referred to as agouti) in coat color, dilution is most definitely not a wild-type coloration.

    The information on the website you cite seems to predate identification of and the test for the dilution gene. So, to summarize, the dilute gene now found in a few AKC registered as Lab lines did NOT come from Norwegian elkhounds in the 1940s!
    Last edited by AllAroundLab; 02-26-2013 at 09:33 AM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    In doing a little more sleuthing, it appears that the color didn't just crop up in the original guy's lines...his root stock traces back to a puppy mill that bred both Labs and Weims.
    Sharon Potter

    www.redbranchkennels.net

    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers...too many to list.

    Team Huntsmith

  5. #45
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAroundLab View Post
    ....So, to summarize, the dilute gene now found in a few AKC registered as Lab lines did NOT come from Norwegian elkhounds in the 1940s!
    And even if it did, Labs are not Norwegian Elkhounds.

    The dilution gene is not supposed to be there.

    The only DNA test needed to determine that a "silver" Lab is not a Lab, is a D locus test.
    If there is one or more recessives there, then the dog is not a Lab.

  6. #46
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdluck View Post
    REPEAT ... They are not falsifying the registration. re read Copterdocs post #16. The AKC said to register them as chocolate.
    You really read that post wrong.

    Robert Young is/was a PHOTOGRAPHER.

    The story, is a LIE.
    The AKC does not "allow" the registration of dilute Labs, as chocolate.

  7. #47
    Senior Member jb504079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    You really read that post wrong.

    Robert Young is/was a PHOTOGRAPHER.

    The story, is a LIE.
    The AKC does not "allow" the registration of dilute Labs, as chocolate.
    That's also my understanding. Therefore, people are falsifying their registration of silver labs. Either way, I think the AKC should be a little more clear about this issue. But I don't see how that would stop someone from registering a silver pup as a chocolate. Someone else said it earlier, there are a ton of people who aren't concerned about the integrity of the breed. They just want the newest fad so they can tell everyone about how they bought a rare dog.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Erik Vigeland's Avatar
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    I was thinking of getting a British Silver Lab...
    Thanks,

    Erik
    --
    Old Oak's Irish Poet ~ "Teegan"

    Sire: Irish FTCH Rockenhart Voyager
    Dam: Old Oak's Ipswich Addie JH


  9. #49
    Senior Member jb504079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Vigeland View Post
    I was thinking of getting a British Silver Lab...
    Lol...that's funny right there.

  10. #50
    Member Takem_brewer's Avatar
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    If the people that breed silver labs would like to be able to legitimately register their pups/dogs with the akc, there best bet would be to start their own breed and go from there. It would take a long time, but could be done. They could call themselves whatever they want (silver retrievers or whatever), make their own standard, etc.... By then I would think there would be some responsible breeders to promote the new breed.

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