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Thread: Silver "Labs" and AKC

  1. #61
    Senior Member Nicole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    Do they even have silver labs in Britain? Might help with the cross-breed vs. hidden dilution gene arguments
    The good ol' usa was the only place silvers magically appeared up until a couple years ago. Unfortunately now, they've been exported to a number of countries worldwide.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    You really read that post wrong.

    Robert Young is/was a PHOTOGRAPHER.

    The story, is a LIE.
    The AKC does not "allow" the registration of dilute Labs, as chocolate.
    OH!

    well then i say we give all them silver breeding lovely folk lollipop's and ice cream.
    Last edited by gdluck; 02-27-2013 at 07:10 PM. Reason: not to offend

  3. #63
    Senior Member jb504079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicole View Post
    The good ol' usa was the only place silvers magically appeared up until a couple years ago. Unfortunately now, they've been exported to a number of countries worldwide.
    A couple articles I read said that experts had traced the cross breeding to 3 kennels in America back in the 30s or 40s. Crossed with Weimaraner which always carries the diluted gene. Weimaraner is a diluted breed all together. I took some genetics courses in college, and this is the only way, to my limited understanding, that breeders can replicate the diluted gene across multiple generations.

    Experts in these articles believe the diluted gene was introduced by accident, and that breeders of silver labs today are keeping the dilution going by purposefully breeding for it, and the only way they could replicate it is by cross breeding with a dog that carries the diluted gene, which is initially taken from a Weimaraner.

    Example they gave was breeding a chocolate lab with a Weimar, introducing the diluted gene. You get mixed pups, chocolates and silvers. You keep the dilution going by breeding brother to sister, or father to daughter, so on and so on. This would also explain all the health issues of silvers as well IMO. just my .02, but its not good for the breed.
    Last edited by jb504079; 02-26-2013 at 05:01 PM.

  4. #64
    Senior Member weathered's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb504079 View Post

    Example they gave was breeding a chocolate lab with a Weimar, introducing the diluted gene. You get mixed pups, chocolates and silvers. You keep the dilution going by breeding brother to sister, or father to daughter, so on and so on. This would also explain all the health issues of silvers as well IMO. just my .02, but its not good for the breed.
    I agree there was probably a lot of inbreeding and line breeding to keep the gene at first. But breeding a non dilute gene carrying chocolate to a Weim produces all dark colored dogs, no "silvers." A second generation Weim to chocolate cross, bred back to a Weim would produce some dark chocolates and some silvers. So the first cross did not produce a silver lab, but subsequent generations bred to each other would produce some silver colored dogs.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Terri's Avatar
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    I'm not interested in being an expert in silver Labs". I just want to know if AKC is going to recognize the silver color? Or if any thing can be done to stop breeder fraud/ owner fraud? I have eyes and can see silver is not chocolate.

    Terri

  6. #66
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    AKC is NOT going to recognize the silver color as separate from chocolate. That would require the recommendation of the parent club, and that's not going to happen.

    As for people being scammed, it happens all the time when buyers don't do their homework. People will believe what they want to believe. And the gray breeders believe it too, because to do otherwise would cost them money.
    Sharon Potter

    www.redbranchkennels.net

    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers...too many to list.

    Team Huntsmith

  7. #67
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weathered View Post
    I agree there was probably a lot of inbreeding and line breeding to keep the gene at first. But breeding a non dilute gene carrying chocolate to a Weim produces all dark colored dogs, no "silvers." A second generation Weim to chocolate cross, bred back to a Weim would produce some dark chocolates and some silvers. So the first cross did not produce a silver lab, but subsequent generations bred to each other would produce some silver colored dogs.
    The one set of papers I saw for a silver Lab basically had a family tree that didn't branch. It's actually quite easy to breed for a single recessive trait like the dilution gene. From what I've heard (from fairly knowledgeable sources) it didn't happen in the 1940s, it was much later, late 1980s. Kennel in question, Crist Culo, bred both Labs and Weims. No doubt they bred one or two Weims to Labs and falsified the Weim parent as a purebred Lab to register the pups with the AKC. Then, voila, a litter of all dark colored pups, but all would carry the dilution gene, so all they had to do was breed 2 of those together and the pups would follow the standard Mendellian percentages of a certain number being dilute, a certain number being normal colored, but carrying one gene, and a certain number being solid, not carrying dilute. Then all you have to do is breed 2 dilutes and you'll get nothing but dilutes.

    Obviously that kennel started making lots of money on them to the point the guy offered $100,000 if anyone could prove they weren't purebred Labs. No doubt this brag wasn't offered til several generations after the Weim parent and the "straw" parent (the purebred Lab they fraudulently listed as the parent to register the pups) were dead and buried and the kennel no longer kept any Weims. At that time, which may still be true today despite advances, all DNA could do was confirm the parents were the ones listed on the papers, and you can bet they wouldn't offer up the falsly-registered litters, they waited a couple generations. I don't think even today there's a DNA test that could prove these dogs have Weimeraner in them now, it would be too far back in the pedigree. About all you can prove with DNA tests is that the puppies came from the parents listed on the pedigree, and even that can't be proved if the parents are no longer available for DNA sampling.
    Last edited by Julie R.; 02-26-2013 at 10:02 PM.
    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers since 1981

  8. #68
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    The experience Julie's sister had is just deplorable. Unfortunately, breeders like that are found in all colors and types of Labs, not to mention most other breeds as well. It is a problem that continues to plague unsuspecting puppy buyers. Most every "how to" buy a puppy guideline states to get paperwork verifying the breeder's claims, etc. Unfortunately not every person looking for a new puppy is going to be committed enough to do all their homework and may fall for the cute cuddly pictures, overlooking the all important details.

    I agree that it is unlikely that "Silver" or any other new color will be added to the LRC standard any time soon, if ever. Breeders are unwise to suggest that it is just about to happen. They have been saying that for a couple decades now. "Could" it happen, anything is possible, but if it ever did it would likely not be any time soon though. The hatred, ignorance, and emotion on both sides is much too raw.

    The LRC standard says chocolate can range in shade from "light to dark." The contention that silver Labradors are within the standard is based in that allowed variation of chocolate. We've all seen chocolates along this spectrum of shades; all the genes responsible for the variations have yet to be identified. Though many do not consider "silvers" to fit as a light chocolate, the reason the AKC places them there is based on genetic and physiologic principles and of course their own certified pedigree. Technically, the d gene does not change the pigment color at all, it only affects its placement in the hairs in a more or less random fashion instead of an even fashion (same as with Julie's beautiful silverpeakes). Silver Labs are homozygous recessive at the B locus, just like every other chocolate. The gene affecting the shade of the B locus in silver Labradors is known to be the d gene. Other different genes that also affect shade are yet unidentified, albeit present and affecting shade.
    Regarding the often claimed, but never proven, crossing to a weimeraner, the AKC did the best they could at the time to investigate this accusation. They found no evidence supporting it, neither did the LRC (and they REALLY wanted to find it). It certainly could have happened, again nothing is impossible, but it is much more likely that if the d gene was introduced to the breed that it unknowingly came in a very long ago through some of the other breeds that were crossed into the Lab that have that gene in their gene pool. Much to the chagrin of those who hate these Labradors, AKC has simply taken a very pragmatic approach, based on genetic principles, pedigrees, and the findings of their investigations.

    Whether we like it or not, Silver Labradors are here for good. Instead of stereotyping those who own or breed them as totally ignorant or the epitome of all evil. It would better serve the Labs themselves to encourage and support more ethical breeding practices and more responsible ownership. Then hopefully experiences like Julie's sister had will become much less common.

  9. #69
    Member robert stoeberl's Avatar
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    DO YOU REALLY WANT TO THREATEN POEPLE!!!!!
    by all means YOU CAN START WITH ME!!!!!!
    I WILL NOT BACK DOWN!!!!

    well then i say we go string up all them silver breeding SOB's from gdluck!
    Last edited by robert stoeberl; 02-27-2013 at 10:21 AM.

  10. #70
    Senior Member jb504079's Avatar
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    Did anyone else see a threat in this thread??? Maybe I missed it...???

    Oh, I did see a sarcastic remark about hanging silver breeders.....but did anyone else not think that was sarcasm?

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