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Thread: Collar wise dogs, can't count !

  1. #11
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    I have one that is hopelessly test/trial wise. I taught it to him all by myself. He does great at group training days or picnic trials, collar or no collar. But totally understands the difference if it is the real thing and plays me like a harp. Angel dog! I don't know if I have ever seen a true "collar" wise dog. There would be a lot of ways to fix that I think.
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
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  2. #12
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    One of the things I picked up from the Lardy tapes fifteen years ago, was that if you trained regularly and consitantly, holding high standards, you would build good habits into your dog that would carry over into actual field trials. I have found this to be true and is one reason I never put my dog in a position where he could get away from something, breaking a good habit, by training without a collar on.

    John

  3. #13
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    One of the things I picked up from the Lardy tapes fifteen years ago, was that if you trained regularly and consitantly, holding high standards, you would build good habits into your dog that would carry over into actual field trials. I have found this to be true and is one reason I never put my dog in a position where he could get away from something, breaking a good habit, by training without a collar on.

    John
    X2 Dogs are habital learners, a lot easier to deal with before the fact, with or without a collar. Afterwards you might have to get more old school in your approach, always found my collar-wise dog benefited more with a hands on approach, ear grab, muzzle shake, tackle, people hiding with yellows bats in the field, even tired heavy duty fishing line and Ocean reel (worked for bringing puppies back) . Got to be inventive when working with those smart ones Still they've been OB training working dogs for 100's of year without a collar, there are techniques, for insuring good behavior and command response without a collar, just longer, labor intensive and more involved.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 02-27-2013 at 12:34 PM.
    "They's Just DAWGS"
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by John Robinson
    One of the things I picked up from the Lardy tapes fifteen years ago, was that if you trained regularly and consitantly, holding high standards, you would build good habits into your dog that would carry over into actual field trials. I have found this to be true and is one reason I never put my dog in a position where he could get away from something, breaking a good habit, by training without a collar on.

    John


    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    X2 Dogs are habital learners, a lot easier to deal with before the fact, with or without a collar. Afterwards you might have to get more old school in your approach, always found my collar-wise dog benefited more with a hands on approach, ear grab, muzzle shake, tackle, people hiding with yellows bats in the field, even tired heavy duty fishing line and Ocean reel (worked for bringing puppies back) . Got to be inventive when working with those smart ones Still they've been OB training working dogs for 100's of year without a collar, there are techniques, for insuring good behavior and command response without a collar, just longer, labor intensive and more involved.
    X3!!!

    Keep your standards high! Get excellent in training and accept good at a trial. If you don't get good, pick him up and train!!! Do not retrial until he's been excellent for several months and then trial again. Rinse and repeat if necessary.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokengunz View Post
    I remember using this 20 years ago. My 4 1/2 yo lab has been collar wise since the first HT. She get out of her box and shakes to see if the collar is on. So....at the last training day I installed two e collars, used the choker as i always do in the holding blind. On the last holding blind I removed the choker and also the dummy collar. She did the shake and felt lighter and thought the collar was off. I have trouble with her breaking at moch 10. this time when she started to get loose I gave her a good correction. maybe in a few week i can get back in the games.
    The way I've approached it (with Curlies, you have to be inventive) is to throw a flyer that is on a string. If the dog breaks, the thrower reels the bird in and I go out there and have a come to Jesus meeting with the dog. The combination of not getting the bird and having to put up with me dropping on them like Auntie Em's house seems to convince them to not break any more. Another thing that works sometimes is to throw the flyer then turn 180 degrees and throw another flyer.

    It's all about getting in their heads and throwing out the garbage we've taught them

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    One of the things I picked up from the Lardy tapes fifteen years ago, was that if you trained regularly and consitantly, holding high standards, you would build good habits into your dog that would carry over into actual field trials. I have found this to be true and is one reason I never put my dog in a position where he could get away from something, breaking a good habit, by training without a collar on.

    John
    I believe this is the key part of training a dog ...Habit...we want to test before we have formed them ...One or two reps with the correct response does not make it a habit...Several days does not make it a habit...proofing and getting the dog to generalize the behavior under all circumstances is needed...reinforcing of commands is a standard part of the maintenance program...Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  7. #17
    Senior Member Brokengunz's Avatar
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    working on other things also, dog knows not to break, come right back when I call her back in. I have also seen her stop and come back in by herself. Some say the dog needs more flyers in training, But I have never seen her slow down hunting and retrieving 14 ducks. She is just a bird monster. First hunt test she was rock solid in the holding blind, and the line and at the honor (senior test ) judges commented we were the calmest team they ever judged. by the forth hunt test she was tearing the holding blinds down. the hunt tests ruined my nice dog, tried to get her to break in training nothing worked, she is a mind reader. Been working on a drill to encourage sitting at the line, I hope it works. Will be missing most of the tests coming up due to coming heat cycle. This was the first test in a while she broke. hope i can get her thru this, dog is amazing to watch work,
    just got to stick with it.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    brokengunz,

    You've had some sound advice here, I'd just augment it a bit. There isn't any point in deciding whether your dog is either collar wise or test wise; you've got what you've got, a dog that misbehaves on the line, and breaks.

    There are a couple of implications here, and the first is that the dog is acting in it's own interest not yours, and doesn't see the relationship as a team effort. The second is that she's getting away with it. I've never had to remediate a collar wise dog, but have worked with a number of "runners in". Most people take a two pronged approach, firstly sorting out the relationship and discipline, and then tackling the specific problem. For me, I wouldn't use a collar at all in all that follows; it's up to the dog to take responsibility for its actions, not simply to be coerced or punished for infractions. Your decision.

    You'd be best advised to go back to the basic obedience tasks and work on them with absolute precision ignoring any retrieving work, in particular you want to hear her bum hit the ground when you give a stop whistle. For the dog it should be the canine equivalent of a week on the parade ground with the RSM, "You can do anything you like on my square Laddie provided I tell you to do so and you do it instantly". There's only one answer to that and it's "Yes Sarn't Major", which is just the attitude you want to see from Fidoette.

    We can't see you and her together so it's impossible to judge her attitude to you, but it's something you should think about and work on. You want to see lots of voluntary eye contact from her, a desire to be around you. Without that any other training is going to be marginal.

    Handling the specific problem has already been outlined. An assistant plus lots of birds and shots, in a setting where you are in control. The basic parameters are ... only give one retrieve in five, varying the time of releasing the dog. She should expect to be sent anywhere in a ten second to five minute time frame. Don't shoot all the flyers, deliberately miss a high percentage to teach the concept of "gone away". Honouring is important, make sure she does a lot of it. Be creative, you know your dog best; my pal Gordon taught steadiness in Spaniels with a rabbit on a long line, using a floodlit soccer pitch.

    Best of luck,

    Eug
    Last edited by Colonel Blimp; 03-02-2013 at 09:21 AM.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Brokengunz's Avatar
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    This dog is 4 1/2 years old. I have done all the training with her from 8 weeks of age. I take her with me everywhere I go. No leash no ecollar she does what i tell her in a regular voice. At first glance you would think she is a couch potatoe that sleeps on the bed at night, however she is in great shape. In the field she turns into a gladiator. she is 90 mph out and 90 mph back in, and you are probably right she wants the bird more than anything. I tried the OB style early when running senior tests, her butt was on the ground before i got to the "t" in sit. I have had her sit in the gunners station at training days and watch all the flyers shot and retrieved. I have set up breaking test in training but I can see it in her face she knows whats going on. I have been reinforcing sit on the line eg: sit (nick) quack (nick sit) shot (nick sit) i will slowly remove the nicks, then the sits, then maybe will get the message, my fault at the last test because she told me she was going to break in the last holding blind. I should have done something different to get better control.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Ken Bora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokengunz View Post
    ...... but I can see it in her face she knows whats going on...............my fault at the last test because she told me she was going to break in the last holding blind............
    smart girl
    wanna blow her mind?
    It will cost you an $85 entry and your travel
    BUT
    You go to a test. You come to the line. You explain to the judges you need an $85 training group. You tell them you are sure she is going to break. You have them tell the workers in the field they must beat her to the bird and that you are going to do your best to stop her. But you may give chase. Now you cannot pound the living snot out of her at a test. But you are allowed to make your not so happy with her attitude known. Smart girl who is with you all the time will be sure to pick up on it. So tests are the one place she runs the show??? There is a way to fix her little red wagon. It will blow her mind.
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

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