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Thread: Need Advice Lardy's Indirect Pressure

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    Senior Member Clay Warren's Avatar
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    Default Need Advice Lardy's Indirect Pressure

    I have been progressing through Lardy's program with my 11 month BLF. After completing CC in about 7 sessions I moved yesterday into the indirect portion on simple casting. Here is where the problem starts. When I went back to the 3 handed casting drill it seems that the pup has done a complete mind dump. Initially I started with a few freebies that were not quite up to par but acceptable then continued until I was presented the opportunity for a correction and gave a "No, here (nick), sit". Now she acts like she has no idea whats going on, wont take casts, on overs she tries to come at me, wont go to a pile even after I ear pinch her to the correct one. I collar conditioned her at a 3 and used a high 2 for the correction (TT Pro 500). Simple casting in the yard prior to CC was completed to about 90% proficiency per the video and I have tried to regress and make more of a game out of it again but I'm not sure its helping. Not sure exactly what to do whether to skip to collar fetch then return or go completely back to a couple days of simple casting with no collar.
    "Dont insult the alligator until you have crossed the river"

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    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    It's really hard to diagnose this problem without seeing the dog. I had a similiar situation as you quite a while back. What I did ultimately to correct the problem was move to a different location for three handed casting. Somehow the indirect pressure didn't click and he associated it with the location. This is the only time I have had this problem.

    Dang, I hate to be first with a response.
    Wayne Nutt
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    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoLab21 View Post
    I have been progressing through Lardy's program with my 11 month BLF. After completing CC in about 7 sessions I moved yesterday into the indirect portion on simple casting. Here is where the problem starts. When I went back to the 3 handed casting drill it seems that the pup has done a complete mind dump. Initially I started with a few freebies that were not quite up to par but acceptable then continued until I was presented the opportunity for a correction and gave a "No, here (nick), sit". Now she acts like she has no idea whats going on, wont take casts, on overs she tries to come at me, wont go to a pile even after I ear pinch her to the correct one. I collar conditioned her at a 3 and used a high 2 for the correction (TT Pro 500). Simple casting in the yard prior to CC was completed to about 90% proficiency per the video and I have tried to regress and make more of a game out of it again but I'm not sure its helping. Not sure exactly what to do whether to skip to collar fetch then return or go completely back to a couple days of simple casting with no collar.
    I'm not real sure I remember the Lardy sequence of this. But, I bolded something above which makes me think she isn't altogether to sure she knows what's going on in the casting drill. You could have started adding something else to the drill to early for her.

    Anyway, once you see she isn't taking a cast move up and get the burn behind her and line and cast her to that pile. Move back to the place of the burn after a few and line and cast her from there. Move back to the original line and line and cast her from there. If you get refusals, I heel burn her from the refusal point and resend with that burn behind us. I'll move back again to the burn point and run her a few times and then back up and run her through the spot she was burned. I'll move back all the way to where I started if I can. If I run out of dog before then, I'll find a place I was successful for 3 or four sends and quit there for the day. Tomorrow, back at it.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

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    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoLab21 View Post
    I have been progressing through Lardy's program with my 11 month BLF. After completing CC in about 7 sessions I moved yesterday into the indirect portion on simple casting. Here is where the problem starts. When I went back to the 3 handed casting drill it seems that the pup has done a complete mind dump. Initially I started with a few freebies that were not quite up to par but acceptable then continued until I was presented the opportunity for a correction and gave a "No, here (nick), sit". Now she acts like she has no idea whats going on, wont take casts, on overs she tries to come at me, wont go to a pile even after I ear pinch her to the correct one. I collar conditioned her at a 3 and used a high 2 for the correction (TT Pro 500). Simple casting in the yard prior to CC was completed to about 90% proficiency per the video and I have tried to regress and make more of a game out of it again but I'm not sure its helping. Not sure exactly what to do whether to skip to collar fetch then return or go completely back to a couple days of simple casting with no collar.
    She doesn't understand the pressure from the e-collar.

    Are you following TRT2?
    Do you have the Total E-collar Conditioning DVD?

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    i'm not lardy afficianado as the previous two are but i believe he went back to the basics in that you had to toss a bumper behind/side of the dog and use a lot of body english. sure its already been taught in simple casting but it wasnt used for awhile so she is probably forgot some of it. in a front finish position i threw the bumper behind him to the pile (15 feet or so) and then used his name to release him then brought back to front finish and cast to the identified pile. i ID'd all the piles this way each day of indiriect pressure/simple 3 handed casting drills.

    also wasnt the command for cast refusal "here, sit, nick"

    pay real attention if you have the manuals to the little paragraph about when to nick for indirect pressure. if the dogs giving effort then its not a nick. if its a lack of effort (not paying attention to you while in front finish, taking off before cast is given, etc) then its a nick.


    i too had a little trouble moving from CC to indirect pressure. i thought he would remember it all as it was only 1.5 weeks before but sometimes they just need a refresher and thats where ID'ing the piles with tosses came into play. also went back and used the word fetch instead of back/over for a day or so till he got the hang of the body movements. also add lots of body english to the point your almost moving 2-3 steps toward the pile

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    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Well , How could 'I' ,from dear old Blighty' comment? Huh!
    I was advised to 'look close' at Lardy' and the methods/sequence/structure,and the e-collar programme.
    .....
    HAH! Wayne?..The first 'gut feeling' is usually the best.
    .......
    Over here , we call that a 'Brain Fart'!!! ..I just 'Love' the answer from the 'computer whiz kidd' of all knowing.
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

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    Senior Member Clay Warren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    She doesn't understand the pressure from the e-collar.

    Are you following TRT2?
    Do you have the Total E-collar Conditioning DVD?
    I have both and its an introduction to indirect pressure so I would assume she doesnt understand exactly what the pressure is for. This drill is suppose to teach and build the concept of being corrected on one command for a mistake on another on a small scale. Thanks for the advice I will try some of the suggestions and see what I can come up with. This is just the first pup (out of 7) that I have had this much trouble with picking up the concept.
    "Dont insult the alligator until you have crossed the river"

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    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoLab21 View Post
    I have both and its an introduction to indirect pressure so I would assume she doesnt understand exactly what the pressure is for......
    Watch the last part of the disc chapter on introducing indirect pressure.

    What does Lardy say that introduction to indirect pressure "really is"?

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    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Howard, He is doing three handed casting (baseball). No lining involved.
    Wayne Nutt
    Go Nutts with dog training

    HRCH Patton's Parker Co. Shadow "Shadow"
    HRCH Clineline Hijacker "Jack"
    HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson"-retired
    Castile Creek's Rawhide, SH "Rowdy"

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    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    Howard, He is doing three handed casting (baseball). No lining involved.
    Yup, but after refusals I would be moving up and lining. I'd be casting from that closer position too before I started moving back to the original line. I want to get the dog moving and retrieving. and the easiest way to do that is simplify IMO.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

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