I have been progressing through Lardy's program with my 11 month BLF. After completing CC in about 7 sessions I moved yesterday into the indirect portion on simple casting. Here is where the problem starts. When I went back to the 3 handed casting drill it seems that the pup has done a complete mind dump. Initially I started with a few freebies that were not quite up to par but acceptable then continued until I was presented the opportunity for a correction and gave a "No, here (nick), sit". Now she acts like she has no idea whats going on, wont take casts, on overs she tries to come at me, wont go to a pile even after I ear pinch her to the correct one. I collar conditioned her at a 3 and used a high 2 for the correction (TT Pro 500). Simple casting in the yard prior to CC was completed to about 90% proficiency per the video and I have tried to regress and make more of a game out of it again but I'm not sure its helping. Not sure exactly what to do whether to skip to collar fetch then return or go completely back to a couple days of simple casting with no collar.
It's really hard to diagnose this problem without seeing the dog. I had a similiar situation as you quite a while back. What I did ultimately to correct the problem was move to a different location for three handed casting. Somehow the indirect pressure didn't click and he associated it with the location. This is the only time I have had this problem.
I have been progressing through Lardy's program with my 11 month BLF. After completing CC in about 7 sessions I moved yesterday into the indirect portion on simple casting. Here is where the problem starts. When I went back to the 3 handed casting drill it seems that the pup has done a complete mind dump. Initially I started with a few freebies that were not quite up to par but acceptable then continued until I was presented the opportunity for a correction and gave a "No, here (nick), sit". Now she acts like she has no idea whats going on, wont take casts, on overs she tries to come at me, wont go to a pile even after I ear pinch her to the correct one. I collar conditioned her at a 3 and used a high 2 for the correction (TT Pro 500). Simple casting in the yard prior to CC was completed to about 90% proficiency per the video and I have tried to regress and make more of a game out of it again but I'm not sure its helping. Not sure exactly what to do whether to skip to collar fetch then return or go completely back to a couple days of simple casting with no collar.
I'm not real sure I remember the Lardy sequence of this. But, I bolded something above which makes me think she isn't altogether to sure she knows what's going on in the casting drill. You could have started adding something else to the drill to early for her.
Anyway, once you see she isn't taking a cast move up and get the burn behind her and line and cast her to that pile. Move back to the place of the burn after a few and line and cast her from there. Move back to the original line and line and cast her from there. If you get refusals, I heel burn her from the refusal point and resend with that burn behind us. I'll move back again to the burn point and run her a few times and then back up and run her through the spot she was burned. I'll move back all the way to where I started if I can. If I run out of dog before then, I'll find a place I was successful for 3 or four sends and quit there for the day. Tomorrow, back at it.
I have been progressing through Lardy's program with my 11 month BLF. After completing CC in about 7 sessions I moved yesterday into the indirect portion on simple casting. Here is where the problem starts. When I went back to the 3 handed casting drill it seems that the pup has done a complete mind dump. Initially I started with a few freebies that were not quite up to par but acceptable then continued until I was presented the opportunity for a correction and gave a "No, here (nick), sit". Now she acts like she has no idea whats going on, wont take casts, on overs she tries to come at me, wont go to a pile even after I ear pinch her to the correct one. I collar conditioned her at a 3 and used a high 2 for the correction (TT Pro 500). Simple casting in the yard prior to CC was completed to about 90% proficiency per the video and I have tried to regress and make more of a game out of it again but I'm not sure its helping. Not sure exactly what to do whether to skip to collar fetch then return or go completely back to a couple days of simple casting with no collar.
I have both and its an introduction to indirect pressure so I would assume she doesnt understand exactly what the pressure is for. This drill is suppose to teach and build the concept of being corrected on one command for a mistake on another on a small scale. Thanks for the advice I will try some of the suggestions and see what I can come up with. This is just the first pup (out of 7) that I have had this much trouble with picking up the concept.
i'm not lardy afficianado as the previous two are but i believe he went back to the basics in that you had to toss a bumper behind/side of the dog and use a lot of body english. sure its already been taught in simple casting but it wasnt used for awhile so she is probably forgot some of it. in a front finish position i threw the bumper behind him to the pile (15 feet or so) and then used his name to release him then brought back to front finish and cast to the identified pile. i ID'd all the piles this way each day of indiriect pressure/simple 3 handed casting drills.
also wasnt the command for cast refusal "here, sit, nick"
pay real attention if you have the manuals to the little paragraph about when to nick for indirect pressure. if the dogs giving effort then its not a nick. if its a lack of effort (not paying attention to you while in front finish, taking off before cast is given, etc) then its a nick.
i too had a little trouble moving from CC to indirect pressure. i thought he would remember it all as it was only 1.5 weeks before but sometimes they just need a refresher and thats where ID'ing the piles with tosses came into play. also went back and used the word fetch instead of back/over for a day or so till he got the hang of the body movements. also add lots of body english to the point your almost moving 2-3 steps toward the pile
i'm not lardy afficianado as the previous two are but i believe he went back to the basics in that you had to toss a bumper behind/side of the dog and use a lot of body english. sure its already been taught in simple casting but it wasnt used for awhile so she is probably forgot some of it. in a front finish position i threw the bumper behind him to the pile (15 feet or so) and then used his name to release him then brought back to front finish and cast to the identified pile. i ID'd all the piles this way each day of indiriect pressure/simple 3 handed casting drills.
pay real attention if you have the manuals to the little paragraph about when to nick for indirect pressure. if the dogs giving effort then its not a nick. if its a lack of effort (not paying attention to you while in front finish, taking off before cast is given, etc) then its a nick.
i too had a little trouble moving from CC to indirect pressure. i thought he would remember it all as it was only 1.5 weeks before but sometimes they just need a refresher and thats where ID'ing the piles with tosses came into play. also went back and used the word fetch instead of back/over for a day or so till he got the hang of the body movements. also add lots of body english to the point your almost moving 2-3 steps toward the pile
Well , How could 'I' ,from dear old Blighty' comment? Huh!
I was advised to 'look close' at Lardy' and the methods/sequence/structure,and the e-collar programme.
.....
HAH! Wayne?..The first 'gut feeling' is usually the best.
.......
Over here , we call that a 'Brain Fart'!!! ..I just 'Love' the answer from the 'computer whiz kidd' of all knowing.
Yup, but after refusals I would be moving up and lining. I'd be casting from that closer position too before I started moving back to the original line. I want to get the dog moving and retrieving. and the easiest way to do that is simplify IMO.
Yea?.. but?.""Not sure exactly what to do whether to skip to collar fetch then return or go completely back to a couple days of simple casting with no collar."
Give it a day or two without any pressure (collar pressure).... you will still have to pinch if you get a refusal. It'll give you a chance to review 3 handed casting and give a the dog a bit of a mental break at the end of conditioning. Don't be afraid to help with body english and IDing etc. CC is obviously a stressful time and sometimes I think it helps to let them have a day or two to digest before you start the Ind. press. intro. Don't skip the step and move on, but at the same time, don't rush it and dig a hole. I can't stress enough how important it is to make sure the dog is getting plenty of marks in the field. (Birds if at all possible)
My take on this: Something tells me that there is more confusion than anything else. I personally have resorted to "simplify", maybe even "oversimplify". I would simplify,change location, reteach, and make sure the dog understands the behavior that is wanted before I would add the pressure. I have Lardy's material and when I read it I just get the feeling that he makes sure the teaching end is understood but I must admit I haven't looked at his stuff for a while.
I had a similiar question not long ago regarding indirect pressure. Attached is the thread, its a bit lengthy but has some good info on this subject, if you can read past some of the sniping that went on in the thread.
Well, needless to say I'm at a loss....I think Ive tried everything but pull my hair out. Gave her 4 days off = no improvement even on an extremely simplified scale, moved to a different location, tried to move to collar fetch (gave no collar stimulus through any of this) today but any sort of pressure seems to shut her down and now she completely clams up and acts like she has never been FF'd with ear pinch! Just not sure what went wrong when obedience, FF, CC, etc. went so smoothly (all of which were completed to the accepted standards with no short cutting). The only thing I can think of is that she is starting to cycle which may be throwing her into a funk as her first birthday is right around the corner. So if anyone has anything to add or additional advice thank you in advance and Ill keep at it.
I just have a hard time believing that her snappy compulsion during FF and her driving like a bat out of hell on a here whistle or her quick sharp sits on a sit whistle that developed over the last 5 months of yard sessions was her faking or doing it because she all of a sudden felt like it and not a product of avoidance training to escape collar correction or ear pinch.
I just have a hard time believing that her snappy compulsion during FF and her driving like a bat out of hell on a here whistle or her quick sharp sits on a sit whistle that developed over the last 5 months of yard sessions was her faking or doing it because she all of a sudden felt like it and not a product of avoidance training to escape collar correction or ear pinch.
That line stood out to me also. ONE command at a time, let the dog finish the command, and it would be Sit. This is one that you really need to see the dog and handler in action. Can you tape it?
If she is coming into heat that could be a reason for the shutdown. Especially if it is the first one. I just send my client females home when they come in season.
It's hard to say if there was holes in the ff process without actually seeing it. But, generally there comes a time in walking ff that you will start to get refusals. And you have to work your way through these refusals. It is generally a couple days into walking ff. At least that is my experience.
Howard N. states that the refusal stage is about eight days into the ff process in his experience.
Things that I would do:
1. Wait her out on the heat cycle and see if that is an issue.
2. If it is not a cycle issue, put her up for a week. Hopefully you have an outside kennel. Don't let her out to play or train with her at all. Just feed, water and ignore. Sometimes this does wonders to clear their heads and they will come out ready to work again.
This is the best advice I can come up with without having seen the dog.
If she is coming into heat that could be a reason for the shutdown. Especially if it is the first one. I just send my client females home when they come in season.
When you give an indirect correction the object is to refocus the dog's attention to what he is doing , so drop the word "no" from the sequence and don't try to bring the dog in with "here".
The proper sequence is Tweet-(pause) nic- tweet, then recast.
Undertanding the programme over the last few months(for a Limey that is!), I would have thought that the communication tool was 'Not' any word spoken?..here,or there,or sit ?
Confused?.....Surely if the dog has been trained(learned) the action, ''Why would you require to continue 'telling it'?"...Just a thought?
I fail to see how your posts are relevant to the conversation other than being antagonistic in nature. A command is a directive of action not an inquiry so yes I'm "telling" my dog to do something rather than giving it a choice on doing whatever it wants or communicating with it telepathically as you have proposed.
Anyways, I will attempt to have a buddy tape it if I can. Some of the posts make complete sense and I could have definitely caused the hesitation to cast with the "here (nick)" instead of a "sit (nick)". In the initial correction video sequence Lardy gives a right over and the dog goes right back, he then gives a stern "No!" which slows the dog and turns its head towards him, he then gives a "here (nick)" then stops the dog at the front finish with a "sit" and casts again. I will review the disc again to make absolutely sure the nick is on "here" and not "sit" but I can see that correcting on "here" may have caused the hesitation.
Just went through the HEAT CRAZIES, myself and was astounded at the "mind dump" as you put it. I let mine have about 5 days off until I could tell she was feeling normal again. Then we went out and reviewed what we worked on before the crazies - she was totally back to normal and I might even say better than ever. A big relief!
Give her some time off and give her love and a comfortable place to sleep and interact with you in the house. In my opinion, putting a dog in an outside kennel with no interaction and just prison treatment after having all this pressure and confusion in the "yard" tells her your ability to communicate with each other is poor and may make her all the more unsure about what you're doing in training.
Got everything figured out...became a totally different dog coming off the heat cycle and is back to normal. Made sure I was putting in enough marking training as well as yard work to balance everything out and we completed indirect pressure. Now moving to collar fetch.
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