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Thread: FF or Collar Condition first?

  1. #11
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Collar conditioning and force fetch are both 2 separate "courses" that a retriever pup may take in his education.

    An Engineer needs to take physics and chemistry. An entgineer may take pchem or physical chemistry, and he may take thermodynamics. Each of these courses can play a role in the Engineer's education. But in the end, whether the Engineer takes physics 101 first, or chemistry 101 first, if he masters both courses, he'll be OK.

    Various programs have stepwise progressions that work nicely together.

    I agree with those who post that if you're following a program, go ahead and follow a program. If a program works for you, then the results are proof that it worked well.

    For me to tell another trainer that he's better off doing FF before CC or vice-versa is like my telling him he's better off marrying a blonde than a brunette. It's his life, his dog, his set of experiences. It is a personal choice and there's no "one size fits all".
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  2. #12
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    But in the end, whether the Engineer takes physics 101 first, or chemistry 101 first, if he masters both courses, he'll be OK


    I like that answer, 'cause a year from now, it won't matter which one you did first.
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  3. #13
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    I like that answer, 'cause a year from now, it won't matter which one you did first.[/COLOR]
    Thanks Howard, I like that word choice better. Much better.

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  4. #14
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    Chris has a point and Howard makes it stick when Chris said..."For me to tell another trainer that he's better off doing FF before CC or vice-versa is like my telling him he's better off marrying a blonde than a brunette. "... cause in a few years, gray will make it all the same. Don

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    I have a 10 month old lab who has good obedience and marks singles. Just wondering if I should ff or cc first.

    Thanks
    Dan
    If at all, how have you use your collar up till now?

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  6. #16
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    FF first if puppy's obedience is good I thinkoranhotrods@bellsouth.net

  7. #17
    Senior Member verne socks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb504079 View Post
    I don't understand why you would FF first? Shouldn't the dog understand turning pressure off (including collar pressure) before you FF? Not arguing with how anyone else does it, just curious what methods are used if you FF before CC.....
    Doesn't force fetch "teach" them to turn off pressure? They can learn this concept and then follow up with collar conditioning.

  8. #18
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    OP appears to be done but what do you guys think about the idea that teaching the dog to turn off pressure on stationary, black and white commands is more fair than trying to teach it on a command like "fetch"?

    I was taught to CC first, but so what...

    In thinking about the progression independent of a program (and yes I know it works either way), I think it's much more clear to the dog to teach the concept of "turning off pressure" with a stationary command that he knows very thoroughly like sit, than it is with something he doesn't really understand, like fetch (where there is also movement).

    I like to isolate my training to one issue at a time, if I can, especially with a youngster.

    Thoughts?
    Darrin Greene

  9. #19
    Senior Member jb504079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verne socks View Post
    Doesn't force fetch "teach" them to turn off pressure? They can learn this concept and then follow up with collar conditioning.
    Yes, it does. But I don't FF before the dog has its adult teeth. By that time, a dog should already be completely familiar and conditioned to the collar. Are you FF much earlier than this?

  10. #20
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    OP appears to be done but what do you guys think about the idea that teaching the dog to turn off pressure on stationary, black and white commands is more fair than trying to teach it on a command like "fetch"?

    I was taught to CC first, but so what...

    In thinking about the progression independent of a program (and yes I know it works either way), I think it's much more clear to the dog to teach the concept of "turning off pressure" with a stationary command that he knows very thoroughly like sit, than it is with something he doesn't really understand, like fetch (where there is also movement).

    I like to isolate my training to one issue at a time, if I can, especially with a youngster.

    Thoughts?
    Darrin
    It would depend what angle and perspective one see's things from. In the end does it matter? I don't know. But as you suggested ,it is the reason I CC to here first before any other because the pressures comes at a distance instead of directly over the dog. And its a hands on from the trainer instead of a tingle from a collar,,which a reaction can also be measured from the 2 distinct methods. I think people can come up for a valid reason either way,,,but part of training is thinking about how and why something is done.
    Having trained many dogs with aggression issues ,,one thing I learned is distance diffuses aggression,,, and hovering can trigger it. These 2 behavior responces are not just affecting dogs that have aggression issue's but they affect stable happy go lucky dogs also,,one way or another. I know this because we can see it as the dog is going through the FF process and we can see the dog during CC to here and their countenance has a separate look' Because it all goes away in the end,,then does it matter? Don't know
    And if we are always striving to be better at what we do then ,,why and how we do things become important sometimes. But there is no proof one way or the other. So I do it for these reasons right or wrong. ,,,I'm sure the other side of the fence can also give good reasons why they do what they do.
    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 03-03-2013 at 08:57 AM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

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