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Thread: FF or Collar Condition first?

  1. #21
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    I keep hearing "It doesn't matter which is done first" CC or FF. To that I say... " For this to be true one would have to forgo the use of the collar until after FF"
    A lot of people introduce the collar into their OB training regimen well before FF. So let me reiterate stating the obvious No matter which program one is using,.If you plan to use the collar before FF....... It matters!!!

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 03-03-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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  2. #22
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    I keep hearing "It does't matter which is done first" CC or FF. To that I say... " For this to be true one would have to forgo the use of the collar until after FF"
    A lot of people introduce the collar into their OB training regimine well before FF. So stating the obvious No matter which program one is using,.If you plan to use the collar before FF....... It matters!!!

    john
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  3. #23
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    I keep hearing "It does't matter which is done first" CC or FF. To that I say... " For this to be true one would have to forgo the use of the collar until after FF"
    A lot of people introduce the collar into their OB training regimine well before FF. So stating the obvious No matter which program one is using,.If you plan to use the collar before FF....... It matters!!!

    john
    That's what I was wondering. I typically CC a month or two before force fetch because I need a way to control my dog at a distance, even something as simple as nicking him on "here" when he doesn't feel like coming back right away. I just assumed everyone did it this way.

    John

  4. #24
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    The Lardy program typically doesn't use the ecollar before ff except to wear it to get used to it. However, if I have a wild child that will not return on command in the field after marks, I will stop and condition to here. Then continue with the Lardy program and cc at his proscribed time (Lardy's cc is a 7-10 day process to sit, here, whistle sit, etc).
    Generally my early ecollar conditioning on just "here" alone is only about two days. Lardy is cool with the early ecollar here under these circumstances.

    I think to some extent what is considered ecollar conditioning can be misunderstood. For instance, Evan does an early ecollar here but I don't think that is his ecollar conditioning program.

    Again, follow the steps in whatever program you are following.
    Wayne Nutt
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  5. #25
    Senior Member verne socks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb504079 View Post
    Yes, it does. But I don't FF before the dog has its adult teeth. By that time, a dog should already be completely familiar and conditioned to the collar. Are you FF much earlier than this?
    I do not force fetch before adult teeth. I have more than once "nicked" on here with collar prior to force fetch. I do not consider this to be collar conditioning as prescribed in many programs.

  6. #26
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    I find it incredible that one would recommend the use of the e collar on a dog in any way shape or form without a full and propper introduction .

    TT recommends the three action introduction along with it They tell you about selecting intensity levels.

    This would be the bare minimum that I would recommend

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 03-03-2013 at 04:51 PM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  7. #27
    Senior Member jb504079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by verne socks View Post
    I do not force fetch before adult teeth. I have more than once "nicked" on here with collar prior to force fetch. I do not consider this to be collar conditioning as prescribed in many programs.
    I see. I can see doing it both ways I suppose. I FF around 8 or 9 months. By that time, I've already got the dog about 85-90% CC. Wait til a little later to see if the dog needs debolting or not. But all basic commands have been conditioned with the collar. Here, sit, heel, down, kennel, etc.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    jb, Why do you wait until 8 or 9 months to start ff? I start ff as soon as permanent teeth are in. In my last dog this was at 5.5 months. But he was an early teether.
    Wayne Nutt
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    HRCH Clineline Hijacker "Jack"
    HRCH Marks a Lot Midnight Hudson, SH "Hudson"-retired
    Castile Creek's Rawhide, SH "Rowdy"

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Darrin
    It would depend what angle and perspective one see's things from. In the end does it matter? I don't know. But as you suggested ,it is the reason I CC to here first before any other because the pressures comes at a distance instead of directly over the dog. And its a hands on from the trainer instead of a tingle from a collar,,which a reaction can also be measured from the 2 distinct methods. I think people can come up for a valid reason either way,,,but part of training is thinking about how and why something is done.
    Having trained many dogs with aggression issues ,,one thing I learned is distance diffuses aggression,,, and hovering can trigger it. These 2 behavior responces are not just affecting dogs that have aggression issue's but they affect stable happy go lucky dogs also,,one way or another. I know this because we can see it as the dog is going through the FF process and we can see the dog during CC to here and their countenance has a separate look' Because it all goes away in the end,,then does it matter? Don't know
    And if we are always striving to be better at what we do then ,,why and how we do things become important sometimes. But there is no proof one way or the other. So I do it for these reasons right or wrong. ,,,I'm sure the other side of the fence can also give good reasons why they do what they do.
    Pete
    Thanks for this reply Pete. A few interesting nuggets in here (as always when we talk). Distance diffusing some of the aggression issues is one I'll use soon, and frequently, I imagine.
    Darrin Greene

  10. #30
    Senior Member jb504079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    jb, Why do you wait until 8 or 9 months to start ff? I start ff as soon as permanent teeth are in. In my last dog this was at 5.5 months. But he was an early teether.
    I really don't have a particular reason really. My very first dog I was simply ignorant of the method and he didn't get FF until 10 months old. I took him to a hunt test when he was 10 months old, it was my very first time, and one of the judges talked to me about FF. he told me 8-9 months was a good age and I've just stuck to that ever since. That was 14 years ago. I know now that I could start them a little earlier, but I suppose it's just a routine??

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