major swim-by force to pile problem

[blake_mhoona]

20 yards across 35 yards wide oval swim by pond

day 1 of swim by ID pile while dog out of kennel 12 bumpers 1 mark thrown to pile no problem

day 2 of swim by ID pile while dog out of kennel 2 sets of 12 bumpers with 1 mark thrown to pile each set no problem

day 3 of swim by ID pile while dog out of kennel 2 sets of 12 bumpers with 1 mark thrown to the pile each set backed up 10 yards from waters edge with last set of 12 having 2 forces at a level 2 burn (just touched button and released) both were between handler and water's edge. one was a side one was a cast. plus one force send had a level 1 high nick in middle of pond

day 4 of swim by ID pile while dog out of kennel 2 sets of 12 bumper with 1 mark thrown to the pile each set backed up 10 yards from waters edge. 1 force before waters edge at a level 2 at a side send. dog does retrieve then comes back for a freebie side send. dog wouldnt budge. scoot up to 5 yards dog wouldnt budge. scoot up to waters edge dog won't budge. leave him in front finish position he completed retrieve. try side send freebie again wouldnt budge. cast to pile. side sent again went 2 steps then backed up into a heal position. i then proceeded to get him pumped up by talking to him at the line in a "happy tone" getting him jumping aroundwithout commanding heal or sit. he'd did 8 freebies in a row with happy encouraging handler. started set 2 of bumpers allowing him to walk with me to set the pile. cast to pile retrieve. cast to pile again retrieve . cast to pile with force he retrieved. and even did a disciplined cast back to the back pile on his way back. then would not cast or side send. kept doing the 2 steps then walk backwards to heal. finished the day with these happy jumping side sends. then 3-4 water marks and doubles and lots of "up-ups" to warm up and dry off

i'm hoping he left it all out there and we can pick it back up tomorrow. do i proceed with force? skip a day? go to sit (tread) to pile? how do i proceed if he does it again? i'm freaking out here thinking my dogs attitude on water blinds is messed up forever

he never had problems with force to pile in double T be it stick or collar.

forgot to mention he's 11 month CLM following TRT

[Dustin McBride]

just a quick thought, what is the water temp in the pond? I wouldn't want to do swim-by in cold water, and he may be getting a poor water attitude simply due to chilly water. But, that is only one possiblility. I would try to make sure water is at least 55-60 deg before doing swim-by. You may also want to scale back the amount sends and bumpers in the pile (that is if you are expecting him to pick up all 12 at each pile). Thats a bunch of work. When I did swim-by I had maybe a a max of 6 or so at each pile, and we didn't always finish each pile, but sometimes I would also add 1 or 2 to the pile depending on my dogs attitude.

[blake_mhoona]

Water temp is around 60-65. Air temp was 75 today

[labs forever]

i am to following trt and had a very similar problem on swim by .i slowed everything way down and did lots of freebies and lots of front finish sends .i did that for several days and gradually put some forces in their .it took me several days to get back going strong again but he pulled through .the first couple days of using force i only forced once or twice the whole session .make sure your giving a back nick back on the force .we spent over a month on swim by but it worked .

[Howard N]

How did to handle no goes in force to pile and the double T?

It doesn't seem like your dog has the compulsion to go when it gets tough or boring in water. One high level 1 nick out in the water shouldn't stop the dog. I'd be really suspect of the dog's force work.

Also, I can't help but think that 24 sends in water force is maybe twice what you need, and that using a level 2 on a tritronics collar is about half what I use.

[blake_mhoona]

His pain tolerance is very low. Lardy talks about a scale of drive to force scale later. Id rate him as a high drive low tolerance to pain dog. Mundane obedience is a 2 burn or 3 medium nick High pressure would be a 3 burn or 3 high nick before yelping. Of curse during CC we went up to a 5. Using a flyway g2.

Like i said the 3-4 days of FTP land work went well no "no goes" during FTP. The very very few no goes I had on land pile/double T were a sit nick walk closer here send sequence.

The bumper issue: Lardy does use 10 bumper sequence. I can scale it back but I figured giving him a 10 minute break between sessions I could get more reps (not advancing just reps) because of distance to home and telling the property owner I'd only use the property for 2-3 weeks

[claimsadj]

I would do water force separate from swimby personally. Sounds like there are significant holes to be honest. I would be seeking out a pro. 12 send to the back pile each session seems like way too may to me as well. I didn't notice where you are but the water temp here in Alabama where in at is still way too cold IMO.

[claimsadj]

How many times are you sending the dog each day? You mention ten minute breaks between sessions. I sure hope your not doing as much as it sounds like you may be. 20-25 minutes is plenty of time for a swimby session.

His pain tolerance is very low. Lardy talks about a scale of drive to force scale later. Id rate him as a high drive low tolerance to pain dog. Mundane obedience is a 2 burn or 3 medium nick High pressure would be a 3 burn or 3 high nick before yelping. Of curse during CC we went up to a 5. Using a flyway g2.

Like i said the 3-4 days of FTP land work went well no "no goes" during FTP. The very very few no goes I had on land pile/double T were a sit nick walk closer here send sequence.

The bumper issue: Lardy does use 10 bumper sequence. I can scale it back but I figured giving him a 10 minute break between sessions I could get more reps (not advancing just reps) because of distance to home and telling the property owner I'd only use the property for 2-3 weeks

[claimsadj]

Another thing, don't fret over bad sessions and mistakes. Dogs are very forgiving and tend to have short memories, luckily. If not mine would all be worthless. Slow down and shorten the sessions. Plenty of pro nearby that could help.

[copterdoc]

His pain tolerance is very low. Lardy talks about a scale of drive to force scale later. Id rate him as a high drive low tolerance to pain dog. Mundane obedience is a 2 burn or 3 medium nick High pressure would be a 3 burn or 3 high nick before yelping. Of curse during CC we went up to a 5. Using a flyway g2.

Like i said the 3-4 days of FTP land work went well no "no goes" during FTP. The very very few no goes I had on land pile/double T were a sit nick walk closer here send sequence.

The bumper issue: Lardy does use 10 bumper sequence. I can scale it back but I figured giving him a 10 minute break between sessions I could get more reps (not advancing just reps) because of distance to home and telling the property owner I'd only use the property for 2-3 weeks

That doesn't answer the question.

Dog has to know, that pressure means go.