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Pointing labs!!

23K views 107 replies 40 participants last post by  Howard N 
#1 ·
Am I crazy or is there an over abundant amount of "pointing labs" on the RTF?
 
#43 ·
Well said Jim.

When I first read this thread I was kind of annoyed. Then I had to go talk to my project manager about the job. I then came back and just kind of chuckled. A "real lab" really?! Man you wouldn't know a real pointing lab if it came up and bit you! Why? Because it's a LAB plain and simple that points instead of flushes. All the PL's I know are run in AKC and UKC and guess what? You can't tell the difference! I was even at hunt test one time and had a guy say hi as I walked up and then start back in on his conversation with a blow hard saying that the PL's had pointers bred into them and that's why they point. The funny thing is I just stood there laughing at this idiot that sat there and watched my dog run. Funny if he believed half of the crap he was spewing he would have went to the judges and filed a complaint that my dog wasn't eligible because it wasn't a "real" lab. I've got FC's, a MH, and a HRCH in my dog ped and I didn't even buy a pointing lab. The first time I went to pheasant preserve he pointed and that pointed me down this path.

Trainability, drive, and intelegence? Look at my sig line and then tell me my dog doesn't have it. There's also been one or two FC that were titled as pointing labs. But..But...they're not "real labs"! Jeez, now that's kind of silly ain't it?

This is just silly. If you don't believe in Pointing Labs, don't buy one! If you don't believe in a PL, don't hunt with one! If you don't believe in PL's, don't train one! It's the same as if you don't want a lab, don't buy one! If you don't want a golden, don't buy one!
 
#47 ·
Well said Socks. I generally stay out of these threads because they are totally pointless. It's laughable to call a lab that points not a "real lab." I love watching a dog work. Flushing lab, pointing lab, whatever. I also don't understand generalizing pointing labs as having less intelligence, trainability and drive; they're still labs. If you don't like pointing labs, don't get one. It's simple. I enjoy pointing labs, but I have no need to bash a flushing dog.
 
#48 · (Edited)
like a silver lab thread. People get upset when you call them chocolate. hehe..


The Chessie above was a rescue. There is a duck laying down in the clump of grass. Dog was about 5 years old and had never seen a live bird before. Froze solid. Didn't know what to make of it. I was laughing with a friend about it.

I think it's a natural tendency you can bring out in just about every dog. Look at the list of FC's which were mentioned above as being sires to all these pointing labs. If that many FC's (well known ones too) can produce pointing labs, a large family of pointing labs is out there and people never encouraged the "point" in the dogs.

With that being said, if the point is not developing(lots of aforementioned Famous FC sires in the previous post) then it is not natural, it is a trained behavior.
 
#50 ·
If you don't like this "pointing lab" thread don't read it ,and if you think there's no difference between a pup out of an fc compared to a pup out of a "certified pointer" try training them for a living! For some reason they both seem to cost about the same.
 
#53 ·
Sounds like the pointing labs have a strong FC pedigree? Now you have me confused about certifiable pointing labs and the FC's who sired most of them. I shortened the previous post by Swack..

"There seems to be a belief among those who have posted that there is a difference between "pointing Labs" and AKC FT Labs. I'm not sure this is true.
grand-daughter of '72 & '75 NAFC and 3x CNFC River Oaks Corky. Those two dogs were arguably the dominate AKC FT dogs of the late '60's and early '70's.
Wilderness Harley to Go who was a major producer of FT Labs. Harley produced 5 dogs who won a national title (NFC, NAFC, CNF, & CNAFC) qualified for 3 national opens and was a "finalist" in the 1989 National Amateur. Harley was bred on Super Chief and River Oaks Corky lines through his sire, FC-AFC Itchin' to Go and his dam, AFC Black Golds Candlewood Kate (Kate was by NAFC-FC River Oaks Rascal, a Corky son, out of FC-AFC Candlewoods Nellie-B-Good, a Soupy daughter).

Ebonstar Lean Mac. Mac produced more AKC FC's than any sire in the history of the Labrador breed. I have also hunted with another grandson of Mac. Both were very strong pointing dogs."
 
#51 ·
Paul "Happy" Gilmore
like a silver lab thread. People get upset when you call them chocolate. hehe..
Expressing oneself tactfully is a fairly simple process if one filters comments with the definitions of bias and taunting.

bias - an inclination or preference that influences judgment from being balanced or even-handed

taunting - to reproach in a mocking, insulting, or contemptuous manner. (synonym – ridicule)

Then again sarcasm would become a lost art. ;)

Not “pointing” any fingers regards, Jim
 
#52 ·
I find this thread interesting to say the least. I was hoping somebody who breeds pointing labs might chime in. I've been reading quite a bit on pointing labs. I stand to be corrected on this - but, It's my understanding that the "pointing trait" is recessive, and it may or may not show up in a labrador. The "point" comes from the original development of the breed, and crossing with pointers. Because a labrador points or not, does not make it more or less a Labrador retriever.
 
#54 ·
Great thread. Pointing labs are like a trend. Pointing labs, red labs, white labs, silver labs, labs that do hand stands, labs that do cart wheels, etc., etc., etc. People trying to make a quick buck and look cute. Drives me crazy. Most of those people have never seen a field trial either. They think following a dog in slow motion and stoping to watch their dog look at a pen raised bird is real fun. Overrated but hey to each its own.
 
#56 ·
I know a breeder (notice I didn't say a PL breeder) that took a PL from thier breeding and put a QAA on it. Just sayin'

My dog doesn't do slow motion in the field, but like you said to each their own.
 
#60 ·
Look I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a well bred lab that happens to point, my problem is with "breeder " who breeds his dog just because it points. There r plenty of great dogs that point but breeding two labs because they have a "staunch" point is bad voo-doo!
 
#76 ·
Ah..but you see when I look in the future for a PL I want the sire and dam to point AND be able to do the same work as a HRCH and/or MH. The point is part of the package, not the package.
 
#61 ·
I’ve never suggested that Labs that point are any less capable retrievers than any other Lab. I’ve even started to think it’s possible that the degree of control expected by the retriever games may be a factor in prompting the tendency.

One thing you will never see from a spaniel trainer who is concerned w/ a bold flush is stopping a dog when he’s got a nose full of scent, but in the retriever world it’s common to see a handler stop his dog at the end of a blind just as the dog gets down wind of the bird so he can demonstrate control before he lets the dog pick it up.

Recently, I’ve seen a number of Boykin spaniels that have been training for retriever hunt tests coming to do spaniel training and the tendency to “point” is very prevalent – maybe as many as 1/3 of them show at least a hesitation before flushing & some go full on staunch point. Unfortunately for them, in the spaniel games this is considered a disqualifying fault due to concern that any hesitation gives a running bird an advantage.

When you look at the pointing tendency from a spaniel trainer’s perspective, it’s "a bug-not a feature" and yes, it shows up in even the best lines of Field Trial Springers & Cockers. Typically, it’s attributed to training error (ie. too early/harsh intro to steadiness or planting birds too tight in training, etc.) but regardless of the reason, a dog that shows any hesitation will not place in a trial thus reducing the likelihood of it being used as breeding stock for the future and yet in nearly every trial, I see a dog or 2 with some degree of hesitation.
 
#62 ·
So adding yet another positive quality to a breeding (staunch point) is a bad thing? Case in point I will be taking part in a breeding of a GMPR/HRCH/MH/(QAA) x GMPR/HRCH/(Derby Winner). Both dogs do indeed have staunch points, both dogs have proven themselves not only in HT but also FT. I can actually give to you a fairly extensive list of FC/AFC dogs that have been known to throw point. I personally do not own a FC or AFC and at this point in my life do not have the time or money (or willingness to get divorced) to begin that endeavor. However, a dog that NOT only has the ability to compete with the best-of-the-best and on top of that points my roosters so my 74-year old dad and 13-year old nephew can get a slight jump.... those dogs are special.
Everything being said, a PL is simply a Labrador Retriever that points upland birds naturally and just like any retriever (labrador or not) some dogs are stronger than others. As long as health clearances are in-line and the breeder has researched what he/she are trying to accomplish, have at it! Who knows, maybe the folks talking trash will indeed miss their call-back this spring while yet another PL moves on..... now THAT would be tough to swallow ;)
 
#64 ·
Whether you like the pointing lines or not a true gentleman and avid hunter would appreciate the hard effort that goes into training any line or breed of dog. When you continuosly put down another persons dog to make you feel better about your own inadequacies shows a total lack of self respect and respect for others who enjoy a hunting dog. There is a lot of good information on this board and that is why I come here. There are a few elitest who tend to ruin every site. If your dog is FC AFC title then great. It it is a GMPR that is great too. I can say this, I never hear the lab pointing guys putting down the field trial fellows. But constantly here the field trial people slamming the pointing guys. Makes it hard to have respect for some of you. In the big picture, you are mere weak individuals who have no bearing on the thousands of bird my dog retrieves or the memories he makes with my family. I am a passionate hunter who enjoys a well trained labrador but this is my last post on this snobish forum.
 
#66 ·
I don't know whether I sould chime in or not BUT I purchased a really nice bred lab puppy from an FC father and a MH mother, Lean Mac was the grandsire. When I went to pick up the puppy the breeder took a duck wing on a fishing pole and just flipped it around and several of the puppies pointed the duck wing. This was a repeat breeding and a few from the first litter had really good derby careers.

Lonnie Spann
 
#67 ·
flip wings around with a fishing pole and they'll start stopping after the wing has been yanked away from them 100 times. Not arguing, just sayin'... I see pointer people doing this all the time. Hold the wing in the air out of view and have them stop on scent and I start becoming impressed. That's a true, honest point of a well bred pointing dog.

sight pointing objects which are enticing(wing on a fishing pole) is the beginning lesson that pouncing on an object will not be a reward. Stopping and waiting for the object reaps reward. This is repeated 10,000 times in dogs life and they become real staunch on point regardless of breeding.
 
#70 ·
flip wings around with a fishing pole and they'll start stopping after the wing has been yanked away from them 100 times. Not arguing, just sayin'... I see pointer people doing this all the time. Hold the wing in the air out of view and have them stop on scent and I start becoming impressed. That's a true, honest point of a well bred pointing dog.

sight pointing objects which are enticing(wing on a fishing pole) is the beginning lesson that pouncing on an object will not be a reward. Stopping and waiting for the object reaps reward. This is repeated 10,000 times in dogs life and they become real staunch on point regardless of breeding.
Have you ever hunted with a pointing lab? Did it find and point birds in cover? I am not that far away-do you need to see one do that? Mine would be more likely to flush a visible bird than point it-if he can see it, he can retrieve it, or so he thinks :) Or do you just like to stir the pot on these threads? :)
 
#69 ·
Well for me it is a positive quality as pointed out. If we were to get extremely critical, Labradors should be helping retrieve fishing nets and never cross-bred with setters and pointers to help evolve the breed to what we see and love today. If you minimalize the question as I will, there is no division as there is no division between black, yellow or chocolate. This decision as you point out, is simply that, another decision for a puppy buyer to research and determine what is best for he/she. I have done a little research on conformance standards as well. Since roughly 50% of the FT/HT dogs would either be "severely penalized" or even "disqualified" at show level, should we again create a division there? My point is my labrador that happens to point in the upland can run an APLA event (which also requires the same level of retriver work as other venues) the last weekend in April and can certainly keep up with your labrador in any AKC/HRC HT scenario the first weekend in May. You would never know the difference, unless your dog didn't get a ribbon Saturday night at the banquet!
 
#74 ·
I have done a little research on conformance standards as well. Since roughly 50% of the FT/HT dogs would either be "severely penalized" or even "disqualified" at show level, should we again create a division there? My point is my labrador that happens to point in the upland can run an APLA event (which also requires the same level of retriver work as other venues) the last weekend in April and can certainly keep up with your labrador in any AKC/HRC HT scenario the first weekend in May. You would never know the difference, unless your dog didn't get a ribbon Saturday night at the banquet!
You seem like you're trying to pick a fight.

On Conformation, it should be against the breed standard. There is already a divide there between show and field, and that's not good for the breed. Another division - pointing or flushing is probably also not good for the breed, but maybe not. I don't know. I think conformation should have a place in the field, unfortunately the show dogs that are put up are generally not built to do the work that is described in the breed standard, which in turn allows the FT folks to completely ignore the standard as long as the dog can do the work. It would be better if the ring and the field dogs were in sync.

I don't know anything much about APLA events. I imagine they'd probably be fun. I don't know that they're just as challenging on the retrieving portion as the hunting retrieving tests. I don't know how you'd work in the upland portion as an add on to say a MH test and be able to fit it all in, but like I said, I don't know enough to dispute what you say there. I do know that one of the nicest hunt test dogs I've ever seen is a pointing lab that I would love to have a pup out of (because of the non pointing qualities of the dog - I don't really have a need of an upland dog at this point).

You've never seen my dog, so it's just argumentative for you to claim that your dog could keep up with mine in any AKC/HRC HT scenario. There's no way for you to have any knowledge about that. My dog could be a 140lb couch potato, or a closet FC. I never said your dog wasn't as good as another dog etc..


I'm not against labs that point, or labs that flush. I just don't think it's the general consensus that a pointing lab is better than a non pointing lab - or, that it may not be generally seen as a positive for the breed. If I was to guess, among field working labs (those that hunt, hunt test, or field trial) the breakdown would be 1 - probably over 50% - don't have a preference if the lab flushes or points, and would not consider either a trait to be bred for. 2. Of those that care, I'd guess the edge would be those that prefer pointing over flushing, but that might be close. The bottom line to me is that to the extent that you can breed for the characteristics needed in a good working retrieving dog consistent with the standard, and also breed for pointing or flushing it's probably OK. Same as yellow, black, chocolate as you said. But if you begin to put pointing or flushing as primary considerations in your breeding program, that's where there's a danger.
 
#72 ·
The versatility of the lab is almost par to none, for those who want them hold pause or those who want to them to boldly flush, natural inclination or not. Trainabilty, tractablity, and intelligence of is something to strive for. A lab with a point still needs to be steadied and a flushing lab still needs to be taught to hold a flush with-in gun range. If I can't train any lab to pause-point, flush or even throw double-back flip, turn 3 circles, and bark, when he comes upon a bird. He's just not smart enough for me, the ability to learn and adapt needs to be in the blood, to be considered a Lab, whether were training for upland, duck, SAR, OB, Agility, detection, or tap-dancin in the rose Parade.
 
#73 ·
Last time I counted there were 127 dogs within a three black radius of my house. The four of mine are titled (SH or better). The Lab on the corner has a JH title. The rest are pets and most are not Labs.

What is a lab supposed to do on upland? Some point, some flush.
The fact is a very high percentage of most Labs will never do either and they are purebreds.

If we decide that some want pointing and some want flushing, do we end up with yet another division within the breed?
Majority usually rules...so if you are "we" you are probably safe from ever having to make that decision. So what is your point?

I have a close training partner that has three MH dogs. The youngest is a smallish female by an FC and out of a three time Master National bitch. Kate just recently had a litter of pups sired by an FC. My parterner was looking for a smaller stud because her dogs also run agility. Anne's dogs are excellent competitors in agility. For anyone who understands agility, MACH titles are the norm.

Some want field trials, some want hunt tests, some work in other competitions (agility, rally, OB, dock diving, etc), some are into very special skill programs (detection, support), some want show, some want size, some just want to hunt (mostly flush and some point), some are into color and the great, vast majority just want a dog to walk around the block.

The sky is not falling because someone enjoys the fact that their Lab points (for whatever reason). At times I have a difficult time trying to understand the never ending process of telling strangers they are wrong for making personal choices that they feel good about.
 
#88 ·
Many bench labs don't fit within the written standard either. Most are too heavy, many are too short.
 
#89 ·
A statement from Pupaloo in a previous post: "To me, it is a simple matter of preference-do you want a pointer or a flusher?"

Will I start another heated discussion if I answered with, "Can't we have both without people getting mad about it?"

I'm a firm believer that it's OK to have whatever breed of dog you prefer. And, it's OK to train them to what ever level you want. It's not OK to tell others their choice sucks. Even if that's what you really think - unless that person is a really good friend - or maybe not even then.
:D

We have two labs, two red (Irish) setters, and one brittany. The labs flush and the setters and brit point. We have a ton of fun hunting with these guys. I hated it when the season ended and used to get really bitchy about it - many years ago. So, I started training them for hunt tests and field trials in the off season. Even though there are lots of people more successful than I am in both hunting and
competitions. That's OK. I'm having a good time year-round.

It would be great if we could hear the different opinions and experiences without the nasty stuff.
 
#93 ·
Swack, you are right on! I had a female whose grandmother was line bred River Oaks Corky. When I got her I knew nothing about training retrievers and totally trained her myself. We learned, unlearned and learned together on our journey together. She ended up with 2 open 2nds and 2 amateur 2nds and other places. Although some VERY knowledgeable (national finishers) couldn't see how she didn't win on at least one occasion, she never got her first place. She went six for six in attaining her MH title. I truly don't believe that I have ever seen a lab who marked better than she did. On more than one occasion on a retired gun in a FT, she ran right at an obstacle, leaped it, turned 90 degrees in the air and picked up the bird. She pointed the first WILD rooster she ever encountered at 5 months of age. On one trip in ND on public land in snow covered CRP she pointed 28 times in one day. Many hens, but others were roosters, as we made the long trek back to the truck with my limit. Nobody who didn't see her hunt pheasants, or even ruffed grouse, would have had a clue that she pointed. I then bred her to another pointing lab who had his AFC and was 1/2 point short of his FC when he had an injury. Her daughters pointed. The one I kept won 3 Q's out of five (two at her last double header), placed in her other two attempts, and went 3 for 3 toward her MH, before I quit running MH. She became very hard of hearing at an extremely young age, so I couldn't follow through in field trials. I will be looking for another pointing lab, who can do all of the difficult retriever work , both in competition and hunting for waterfowl and upland birds. People who fear pointing in their FT dogs just don't understand that that trait only shows up on an upland hunt when they are quartering in front of a hunter. I definitely believe that it is in MANY great FT lines.
 
#94 ·
I have had labs that point naturally. They are the ultimate dog for upland hunting. No running in the field after a flusher. Of course the lab is a better retriever than a setter or pointer. The style of point isn't as good as the setters I used to run. But the pointing lab works closer so it is easier to get over to the dog to shoot the bird. With setters I always flushed the bird. With labs I give the command to flush. That way everything about the hunt works in my favour.
 
#95 ·
I guess I’m never going to understand why someone would want to hunt pheasants w/ a pointing dog. Pheasants and flushing dogs were made for each other.:confused:

On the other hand, I would like to hear from anyone who has tried hunting grouse w/ a pointing Lab. I’ve used both Setters & Springers and it seems like when I’ve got a Setter in front of me, I wish I had a flusher to get in there so I could stay outside & shoot. When I use a Springer (or retriever), I hear a lot more flushes than I ever see.

A close working dog that would point until sent in for the flush & could be trusted to find everything that I do manage to scratch down sounds like a pretty nice idea. Anyone got experience w/ a PL on Grouse?
 
#96 ·
There was a fellow here on Long Island who had German shorthaired pointers. He taught his dogs to flush the bird on command after pointing them. I haven't met anyone else who does this. Interesting guy, he and his wife hunted together, carried Parkers.
 
#98 ·
I've hunted w/ a few nice GSPs. They were very good retrievers compared to other pointing dogs but many times when I've hit grouse, it was just a "poke & pull" shot & I had no idea if I'd hit it through the trees until the dog came back w/ it. Public land grouse hunting is challenging enough that I can't abide losing a bird hence the interest in a Lab to find them.

I'll bet a good PL would be a good fit.
 
#99 ·
I've hunted grouse with a Lab for years...working on dog #2.
The secrete is to have the dog work close in range, 10 yards max in the thick stuff.
I know an Englisg Setter is the classic grouse dog, I just don't see to many grouse staying put with a dog's nose a couple feet away on point around here. Up north maybe, they are fools hens up there. Down here, they can be very quick to flush.
From my perpective, the grouse focus on escaping the dog and have no clue about the hunter thus providing some shooting opportunities that you might not get otherwise. ie Flush away from dog, up a tree or towards the hunter.
This is especially true if you can work your dog on one side of cover/edge while you hunt the other side.
Range control is the key.
 
#100 ·
From my perpective, the grouse focus on escaping the dog and have no clue about the hunter thus providing some shooting opportunities that you might not get otherwise. ie Flush away from dog, up a tree or towards the hunter.
I don't know if I believe that. I swear they wait until I reach down to pick up my hat when it gets knocked off. ;)

Then there was the time I leaned my gun against a tree to take a leak, good thing my boots are waterproof I guess....
 
#103 ·
"I would like to hear from anyone who has tried hunting grouse w/ a pointing Lab. I’ve used both Setters & Springers and it seems like when I’ve got a Setter in front of me, I wish I had a flusher to get in there so I could stay outside & shoot"
I do, and that is the main bird we hunt here in NW MI. Very skittish birds, they see lots of pressure, but I stopped posting on these threads a long time ago. Dave if you really would like to hear about PLs hunting ruffed grouse PM me.
 
#106 ·
I all honesty it's very hard to get anything done with dial-up, even here. That and I am puter challenged, but not so on PLs or being a dedicated to them and hunting grouse with them.
 
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