Pointing labs!!

[pupaloo]

Glad I started this thread, it looks like I'm not alone. Enough "pointing", "white", "red" and "silver" labs already! I train between 40 and 50 dogs a year, I also guide pheasant hunters at quite a few different lodges around the state so I think I am qualified enough to say stick with the real labs they have a lot more trainabilty and a much stronger desire to retrieve!

That's because you have never seen my dog

He's a great upland dog. Amazing nose, ranges out to about 60 yards, does a very thorough job hunting the terrain, understands how to work running birds and keep them in gun range-and he is enough of a gentleman to point and hold the birds until everyone is ready to flush and shoot. In addition, he is the local go-to dog for Canada geese hunts (they are his favorite). He loves the water and is a strong swimmer.

As far as desire to retrieve? He would rather retrieve than eat, which is saying quite a bit for a lab.

I have hunted him with pointers and shorthairs, both foot dogs and horseback trial dogs. He doesn't go as fast, or out as far-but I get to watch him work, and I don't need a beeper or GPS collar to find him. And he finds and points birds after the other dogs have run through the area....

To me, it is a simple matter of preference-do you want a pointer or a flusher? Otherwise, a lab is a lab-look for the best bred litter you can afford. Both my dogs have FC-AFC sires and titled dams....one is an MH, and one a JH who is a working guide's dog (who's parents are a MHR MH and a littermate to a NAFC-FC and a bunch of other FC-AFC dogs).

Some labs point. Get over it

[KwickLabs]

In the last ten years plus I think I have read "this thread" at least a hundred times.

Given that I haven't even shot at or hunted an upland bird in over three years, I feel "qualified" to comment as a totally unbiased observer.

However, I won't.....because writing an unbiased comment (or two) will have no impact on anyone that is bias and/or just spending idle time taunting.

"everyone has two choices"


Regards, Jim

[Socks]

Well said Jim.

When I first read this thread I was kind of annoyed. Then I had to go talk to my project manager about the job. I then came back and just kind of chuckled. A "real lab" really?! Man you wouldn't know a real pointing lab if it came up and bit you! Why? Because it's a LAB plain and simple that points instead of flushes. All the PL's I know are run in AKC and UKC and guess what? You can't tell the difference! I was even at hunt test one time and had a guy say hi as I walked up and then start back in on his conversation with a blow hard saying that the PL's had pointers bred into them and that's why they point. The funny thing is I just stood there laughing at this idiot that sat there and watched my dog run. Funny if he believed half of the crap he was spewing he would have went to the judges and filed a complaint that my dog wasn't eligible because it wasn't a "real" lab. I've got FC's, a MH, and a HRCH in my dog ped and I didn't even buy a pointing lab. The first time I went to pheasant preserve he pointed and that pointed me down this path.

Trainability, drive, and intelegence? Look at my sig line and then tell me my dog doesn't have it. There's also been one or two FC that were titled as pointing labs. But..But...they're not "real labs"! Jeez, now that's kind of silly ain't it?

This is just silly. If you don't believe in Pointing Labs, don't buy one! If you don't believe in a PL, don't hunt with one! If you don't believe in PL's, don't train one! It's the same as if you don't want a lab, don't buy one! If you don't want a golden, don't buy one!

[Socks]

LOL... Dbag? That's not nice!

What do you think of this Chessie's point? Is it certifiable? I promise, no lie. It held point until I flushed the bird. Stylish huh?

Are you saying your dog isn't a real chessie or had pointer bred into it?

[Socks]

Watching a pointing dog point & relocate multiple times on a moving rooster can be amusing for awhile, but if he does manage to pin it down, it’s not much sport to hit a big, slow pheasant that flushes at your feet. At least for a grown man who’s handled a shotgun a bit.

To each his own. I like watching a dog work the bird, but that's just me.

[Socks]

There seems to be a belief among those who have posted that there is a difference between "pointing Labs" and AKC FT Labs. I'm not sure this is true.

I have no personal experience with the APLA. I only know what I've read about their program and what I've seen of dogs that have been tested in the APLA hunt tests. However, I do have over 25 years of experience hunting pheasant and quail with Labrador retrievers. My first Lab, Blaze, was out of a Super Chief line-bred sire (DaRose's E T by Itchin' to Go x Cup a Soup; Itch was by Air Express who was a Soupy son and Cup a Soup was a Soupy daughter). Blaze's mother was a double grand-daughter of '72 & '75 NAFC and 3x CNFC River Oaks Corky. Those two dogs were arguably the dominate AKC FT dogs of the late '60's and early '70's. There was no such thing as the APLA in those days and nobody to my knowledge was breeding for pointing traits in the Labrador retriever. None the less, Blaze would point a bird that would "sit tight". I didn't teach him or even encourage the point; he did it naturally.

My second dog, Echo, was out of Wilderness Harley to Go who was a major producer of FT Labs. Harley produced 5 dogs who won a national title (NFC, NAFC, CNF, & CNAFC) qualified for 3 national opens and was a "finalist" in the 1989 National Amateur. Harley was bred on Super Chief and River Oaks Corky lines through his sire, FC-AFC Itchin' to Go and his dam, AFC Black Golds Candlewood Kate (Kate was by NAFC-FC River Oaks Rascal, a Corky son, out of FC-AFC Candlewoods Nellie-B-Good, a Soupy daughter). Echo was one of the strongest pointing Labs I have hunted behind.

More recently I had a grandson of Ebonstar Lean Mac. Mac produced more AKC FC's than any sire in the history of the Labrador breed. I have also hunted with another grandson of Mac. Both were very strong pointing dogs. I would say that the pointing trait is well ingrained in AKC FT bloodlines.

I don't think you can say that the differences between the AKC FT Labs and APLA "pointing" Lab as a group is that great. I'd say that you can find as much "diversity" within each group as you can between either group. I don't see the pointing Lab thing as a great sin being perpetrated on the Labrador retriever, as long as their breeder's maintain the rest of the traits that are essential to have in a proper Lab! As I understand it, the testing for the highest title in the APLA includes tradional marking and blind running as well as the pointing test. It was described to me as similar in difficulty to an AKC Senior test.

My guess is that if many of you took your dogs upland hunting you might find that your traditional AKC FT bred Labs would point upland birds that would sit tight. Those of you that are arguing the pros and cons of flushers vs. pointers are missing the point!

And yes, the OP is crazy!

Swack

Thanks for the info!

[goblue20]

Well said Jim.

When I first read this thread I was kind of annoyed. Then I had to go talk to my project manager about the job. I then came back and just kind of chuckled. A "real lab" really?! Man you wouldn't know a real pointing lab if it came up and bit you! Why? Because it's a LAB plain and simple that points instead of flushes. All the PL's I know are run in AKC and UKC and guess what? You can't tell the difference! I was even at hunt test one time and had a guy say hi as I walked up and then start back in on his conversation with a blow hard saying that the PL's had pointers bred into them and that's why they point. The funny thing is I just stood there laughing at this idiot that sat there and watched my dog run. Funny if he believed half of the crap he was spewing he would have went to the judges and filed a complaint that my dog wasn't eligible because it wasn't a "real" lab. I've got FC's, a MH, and a HRCH in my dog ped and I didn't even buy a pointing lab. The first time I went to pheasant preserve he pointed and that pointed me down this path.

Trainability, drive, and intelegence? Look at my sig line and then tell me my dog doesn't have it. There's also been one or two FC that were titled as pointing labs. But..But...they're not "real labs"! Jeez, now that's kind of silly ain't it?

This is just silly. If you don't believe in Pointing Labs, don't buy one! If you don't believe in a PL, don't hunt with one! If you don't believe in PL's, don't train one! It's the same as if you don't want a lab, don't buy one! If you don't want a golden, don't buy one!

Well said Socks. I generally stay out of these threads because they are totally pointless. It's laughable to call a lab that points not a "real lab." I love watching a dog work. Flushing lab, pointing lab, whatever. I also don't understand generalizing pointing labs as having less intelligence, trainability and drive; they're still labs. If you don't like pointing labs, don't get one. It's simple. I enjoy pointing labs, but I have no need to bash a flushing dog.

[Paul "Happy" Gilmore]

like a silver lab thread. People get upset when you call them chocolate. hehe..


The Chessie above was a rescue. There is a duck laying down in the clump of grass. Dog was about 5 years old and had never seen a live bird before. Froze solid. Didn't know what to make of it. I was laughing with a friend about it.

I think it's a natural tendency you can bring out in just about every dog. Look at the list of FC's which were mentioned above as being sires to all these pointing labs. If that many FC's (well known ones too) can produce pointing labs, a large family of pointing labs is out there and people never encouraged the "point" in the dogs.

With that being said, if the point is not developing(lots of aforementioned Famous FC sires in the previous post) then it is not natural, it is a trained behavior.

[Socks]

like a silver lab thread. People get upset when you call them chocolate. hehe..

Pot stirer!

I wouldn't buy a silver lab, but's that more because of to few health clearances and too few titles. Besides, if I wanted a chocolate lab, I'd buy one.

[misarskennels]

If you don't like this "pointing lab" thread don't read it ,and if you think there's no difference between a pup out of an fc compared to a pup out of a "certified pointer" try training them for a living! For some reason they both seem to cost about the same.