The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 7 of 11 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 108

Thread: Pointing labs!!

  1. #61
    Senior Member Dave Flint's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Central Texas
    Posts
    541

    Default

    Iíve never suggested that Labs that point are any less capable retrievers than any other Lab. Iíve even started to think itís possible that the degree of control expected by the retriever games may be a factor in prompting the tendency.

    One thing you will never see from a spaniel trainer who is concerned w/ a bold flush is stopping a dog when heís got a nose full of scent, but in the retriever world itís common to see a handler stop his dog at the end of a blind just as the dog gets down wind of the bird so he can demonstrate control before he lets the dog pick it up.

    Recently, Iíve seen a number of Boykin spaniels that have been training for retriever hunt tests coming to do spaniel training and the tendency to ďpointĒ is very prevalent Ė maybe as many as 1/3 of them show at least a hesitation before flushing & some go full on staunch point. Unfortunately for them, in the spaniel games this is considered a disqualifying fault due to concern that any hesitation gives a running bird an advantage.

    When you look at the pointing tendency from a spaniel trainerís perspective, itís "a bug-not a feature" and yes, it shows up in even the best lines of Field Trial Springers & Cockers. Typically, itís attributed to training error (ie. too early/harsh intro to steadiness or planting birds too tight in training, etc.) but regardless of the reason, a dog that shows any hesitation will not place in a trial thus reducing the likelihood of it being used as breeding stock for the future and yet in nearly every trial, I see a dog or 2 with some degree of hesitation.
    "The bird hunter watches only the dog, and always knows where the dog is, whether or not visible at the moment. The dogí nose is the bird hunters eye. Many hunters who carry a shotgun in season have never learned to watch the dog, or interpret his reaction to scent."
    Aldo Leopold, Round River

  2. #62
    Member P4PLABS's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    52

    Default

    So adding yet another positive quality to a breeding (staunch point) is a bad thing? Case in point I will be taking part in a breeding of a GMPR/HRCH/MH/(QAA) x GMPR/HRCH/(Derby Winner). Both dogs do indeed have staunch points, both dogs have proven themselves not only in HT but also FT. I can actually give to you a fairly extensive list of FC/AFC dogs that have been known to throw point. I personally do not own a FC or AFC and at this point in my life do not have the time or money (or willingness to get divorced) to begin that endeavor. However, a dog that NOT only has the ability to compete with the best-of-the-best and on top of that points my roosters so my 74-year old dad and 13-year old nephew can get a slight jump.... those dogs are special.
    Everything being said, a PL is simply a Labrador Retriever that points upland birds naturally and just like any retriever (labrador or not) some dogs are stronger than others. As long as health clearances are in-line and the breeder has researched what he/she are trying to accomplish, have at it! Who knows, maybe the folks talking trash will indeed miss their call-back this spring while yet another PL moves on..... now THAT would be tough to swallow

  3. #63
    Senior Member duk4me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    NE Texas
    Posts
    2,966

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by P4PLABS View Post
    So adding yet another positive quality to a breeding (staunch point) is a bad thing? Case in point I will be taking part in a breeding of a GMPR/HRCH/MH/(QAA) x GMPR/HRCH/(Derby Winner). Both dogs do indeed have staunch points, both dogs have proven themselves not only in HT but also FT. I can actually give to you a fairly extensive list of FC/AFC dogs that have been known to throw point. I personally do not own a FC or AFC and at this point in my life do not have the time or money (or willingness to get divorced) to begin that endeavor. However, a dog that NOT only has the ability to compete with the best-of-the-best and on top of that points my roosters so my 74-year old dad and 13-year old nephew can get a slight jump.... those dogs are special.
    Everything being said, a PL is simply a Labrador Retriever that points upland birds naturally and just like any retriever (labrador or not) some dogs are stronger than others. As long as health clearances are in-line and the breeder has researched what he/she are trying to accomplish, have at it! Who knows, maybe the folks talking trash will indeed miss their call-back this spring while yet another PL moves on..... now THAT would be tough to swallow
    Nice post.
    I have learned I need these dogs much more than they need me. Tim Bockmon

  4. #64

    Default

    Whether you like the pointing lines or not a true gentleman and avid hunter would appreciate the hard effort that goes into training any line or breed of dog. When you continuosly put down another persons dog to make you feel better about your own inadequacies shows a total lack of self respect and respect for others who enjoy a hunting dog. There is a lot of good information on this board and that is why I come here. There are a few elitest who tend to ruin every site. If your dog is FC AFC title then great. It it is a GMPR that is great too. I can say this, I never hear the lab pointing guys putting down the field trial fellows. But constantly here the field trial people slamming the pointing guys. Makes it hard to have respect for some of you. In the big picture, you are mere weak individuals who have no bearing on the thousands of bird my dog retrieves or the memories he makes with my family. I am a passionate hunter who enjoys a well trained labrador but this is my last post on this snobish forum.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Jerry Beil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    403

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by P4PLABS View Post
    So adding yet another positive quality to a breeding (staunch point) is a bad thing?
    But is it a positive quality? Is it a positive quality for the breed in general? I think that's the question. If we were talking spaniels as in Dave's post above, pointing would be the opposite of a positive quality. What is a lab supposed to do on upland? Some point, some flush. If we decide that some want pointing and some want flushing, do we end up with yet another division within the breed?
    <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
    Donway's Dixieland Delight - Dixie 2/24/1997 - 2001
    Rebel's Ruffian Hank - Hank - 6/05/2001 - 2/3/2011 - Profile Picture
    Blue Ridge Pot O Gold - Sťamus - 1/22/2011 -
    Old North State Queen Anne's Revenge- Annie- 3/21/2013-

  6. #66
    Senior Member Lonnie Spann's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    616

    Default

    I don't know whether I sould chime in or not BUT I purchased a really nice bred lab puppy from an FC father and a MH mother, Lean Mac was the grandsire. When I went to pick up the puppy the breeder took a duck wing on a fishing pole and just flipped it around and several of the puppies pointed the duck wing. This was a repeat breeding and a few from the first litter had really good derby careers.

    Lonnie Spann
    DISCLAIMER: The above post is the opinionated and biased view of your's truly, Lonnie Spann, and is in no way intended to reflect the opinions or views of the unfortunate individuals named below who just happen to be doomed with guilt by association.

    Member of CAHRC and North AL HRC. I train with AND AM FRIENDS WITH: Fishduck, Laidback, Splash_Em, RF2, Drake2014, Claimsadj, Hooked on Quackers, RookieTrainer and Roseberry.

    HRCH Spann's Quacker Jack "Jack" 500 Pt. Club (New & IMPROVED jacket).

  7. #67
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Fall City, WA
    Posts
    4,622

    Default

    flip wings around with a fishing pole and they'll start stopping after the wing has been yanked away from them 100 times. Not arguing, just sayin'... I see pointer people doing this all the time. Hold the wing in the air out of view and have them stop on scent and I start becoming impressed. That's a true, honest point of a well bred pointing dog.

    sight pointing objects which are enticing(wing on a fishing pole) is the beginning lesson that pouncing on an object will not be a reward. Stopping and waiting for the object reaps reward. This is repeated 10,000 times in dogs life and they become real staunch on point regardless of breeding.

  8. #68
    Senior Member pupaloo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    BC
    Posts
    1,015

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Beil View Post
    But is it a positive quality? Is it a positive quality for the breed in general? I think that's the question. If we were talking spaniels as in Dave's post above, pointing would be the opposite of a positive quality. What is a lab supposed to do on upland? Some point, some flush. If we decide that some want pointing and some want flushing, do we end up with yet another division within the breed?
    This is a valid point. To those of us who prefer the pointing variety, it is something appreciated. It is much easier to train a pointing-tendency dog to flush than it is to train a flushing-tendency dog to point (not going to debate natural vs trained point, you know which is which if you see it), so you could "override" the point if it showed up in your flushing dog. That, in fact, is what has happened in the past, and is likely why there are so many FC sired PLs-no one competes with them for pointing, but several will point while hunting.

    Except for the HRC Upland test, there is no test for Labrador retrievers that includes a flushing component, and there are pointing labs who have earned that title. So does the pointing vs. flushing "division" really matter, if labs of both types can perform the retrieving skills needed for hunt tests or field trials?
    Marlana Smith
    APR SHR TDK's Dusty Gunslinger JH - "Churchill"
    CPR Max's Black Diamond Girl Scout JH - "Scout"

    An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

  9. #69
    Member P4PLABS's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Parker, CO
    Posts
    52

    Default

    Well for me it is a positive quality as pointed out. If we were to get extremely critical, Labradors should be helping retrieve fishing nets and never cross-bred with setters and pointers to help evolve the breed to what we see and love today. If you minimalize the question as I will, there is no division as there is no division between black, yellow or chocolate. This decision as you point out, is simply that, another decision for a puppy buyer to research and determine what is best for he/she. I have done a little research on conformance standards as well. Since roughly 50% of the FT/HT dogs would either be "severely penalized" or even "disqualified" at show level, should we again create a division there? My point is my labrador that happens to point in the upland can run an APLA event (which also requires the same level of retriver work as other venues) the last weekend in April and can certainly keep up with your labrador in any AKC/HRC HT scenario the first weekend in May. You would never know the difference, unless your dog didn't get a ribbon Saturday night at the banquet!

  10. #70
    Senior Member pupaloo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    BC
    Posts
    1,015

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul "Happy" Gilmore View Post
    flip wings around with a fishing pole and they'll start stopping after the wing has been yanked away from them 100 times. Not arguing, just sayin'... I see pointer people doing this all the time. Hold the wing in the air out of view and have them stop on scent and I start becoming impressed. That's a true, honest point of a well bred pointing dog.

    sight pointing objects which are enticing(wing on a fishing pole) is the beginning lesson that pouncing on an object will not be a reward. Stopping and waiting for the object reaps reward. This is repeated 10,000 times in dogs life and they become real staunch on point regardless of breeding.
    Have you ever hunted with a pointing lab? Did it find and point birds in cover? I am not that far away-do you need to see one do that? Mine would be more likely to flush a visible bird than point it-if he can see it, he can retrieve it, or so he thinks Or do you just like to stir the pot on these threads?
    Marlana Smith
    APR SHR TDK's Dusty Gunslinger JH - "Churchill"
    CPR Max's Black Diamond Girl Scout JH - "Scout"

    An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •