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Thread: Training alone question

  1. #41
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    Do you folks think that running stand alones all the time, MIGHT encourage "self Employment"
    He certainly won't be learning to work with you at the line.

    I do lots of stand alones. Still, I limit the big ones or cheaty ones or real marking marks, to only 2 or 3 days a week. I also like to work on multiple blinds after I've done some stand alones (sometimes, I can plant them while we're doing stand alones). We get in a session of working together on the line that way. I think it keeps the dog aware that working with me is also his job.

    So for a little dog it could be a session of stand alones followed by a wagon wheel.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    In June of 2011, this training setup was to try a water cheating drill with Daisy. I had a rough idea of how to run the session, but as it progressed there were adjustments.

    The first was to make sure she was lined up in the direction of the fall. I had to walk forward to "influence" that.

    I was a bit slow on realizing the next modification. After four returns to me which could very easily be seen as "cheating the return line", it dawned on me that I was missing half the skill....don't cheat on the way back. So I quickly began returning to the line to correct this presentation error.

    Daisy's Water Cheating Session (YouTube link)

    After one trial run with an already decheated dog, this review/maintence drill will be effective for my experienced dogs. This is not a teaching drill. I do not think it will be appropriate for the inexperienced dog.

    On the last "go" she did not respond to her name well. At the time it didn't make any sense. However, there is a road right behind her and the loud car noise on the video explained why.

    Video taping does make you think more about what you are doing in the moment. However, when you are older the moments are often in slow motion.
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 03-14-2013 at 06:39 PM.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwickLabs View Post
    In June of 2011, this training setup was to try a water cheating drill with Daisy. I had a rough idea of how to run the session, but as it progressed there were adjustments.

    The first was to make sure she was lined up in the direction of the fall. I had to walk forward to "influence" that.

    I was a bit slow on realizing the next modification. After four returns to me which could very easily be seen as "cheating the return line", it dawned on me that I was missing half the skill....don't cheat on the way back. So I quickly began returning to the line to correct this presentation error.

    Daisy's Water Cheating Session (YouTube link)

    After one trial run with an already decheated dog, this review/maintence drill will be effective for my experienced dogs. This is not a teaching drill. I do not think it will be appropriate for the inexperienced dog.

    On the last "go" she did not respond to her name well. At the time it didn't make any sense. However, there is a road right behind her and the loud car noise on the video explained why.

    Video taping does make you think more about what you are doing in the moment. However, when you are older the moments are often in slow motion.
    Good video Jim. Nice corrections on your part getting her to come back straight and getting into the water rather than run the land which I think is important. Thanks for sharing.
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  4. #44
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    Ok anyone do any more advanced things like cheater marks with stand alones? Is it possible to handle from the gunner station in a stand alone situation if they start to cheat or will that not work. Wondering cuz I do train a lone a lot and use stand alones but never on the water. For example what if the line is to clip a corner of water and they try to cheat around. Can you correct with a handle from the gunner station. I thought of this because in Fowl Dawgs 4 rick uses the procedure of calling a dog to him to teach a complicated line for a blind and uses some handling like a swim by cast while doing this.
    Yes its a great advantage especially for down the shore marks . You can teach without breaking momentum. But eventually you still need a gunner and a dog handler to shore it up and make that behavior stronger,,its important that the handler makes corrections from the line also during the de cheating procedure.

    Pete,,
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  5. #45
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    I just saw this topic but also saw some different understanding of terms and thus confusion and questions by some. I labeled methods of throwing marks by yourself many years ago in Retrievers ONLINE and then later in my Training Retrievers Alone DVD and book. I am pleased so manyhave learned their advantages. The techniques have been used for many years but the labeling continues to cause confusion. The dogs don't care about the labels but they do care about the confusion.Here is a brief description of my original labeling: Stand Alones: You walk out in the field-leaving your dog at the line. You throw a mark. You release the dog and he comes out to the mark and gets and delivers to you. If just doing Stand Alones, you would then leave the dog there and move to another spot and do another mark. Most people think this is too simplistic so they complicate with sending the dog back or walk back after throwing so they can send their dog. WRONG! A simple Stand Alone is very valuable. You can teach the dog about check-downs, retireds, flyers, long-distance entries, long distance retrieves, changes of cover, multiple re-entries and stay in the water past the gunner plus much more.A bonus is it teaches a dog to run at the bird not the gunner!! THIS IS HUGE!.My bread and butter is simple Stand Alones!!!NOTE: Complicated water/cover cheating marks should not be done with simple Stand Alones because you cannot clearly and effectively handle from the gunners position. However square entries with re-entries and down the shore marks can be very effectively taught with Stand Alones. If you want to handle enroute for cheats see Walk Backs below.NOW if you throw a mark and after the dog delivers you send him back to the line, that is a SEND BACK. Only the first retrieve is a StandAlone. Everybody seems to likes to do this. It’s advantage is the dog goes for all retrieves from the same line. Frankly, I find this of limited value and I get more out of well-designed Stand Alones where I move to a new spot each time without sending the dog back. Perhaps this is because I use remotes or group training for more complex set-ups NOTE:I applaud the videos by Pete and Jim where they have taught their dogs to return to an exact “place” on command. In 40 years I have not pursued this to their degree although I do not belittle it whatsoever. I just have had other priorities. I send them back to the general target area when I want to do interaction marks.Finally we have Walk Back marks. I go out and throw 2-4marks and return to the line and send the dog . This gives me and my dog the work on sending from the line.Without stick men, we have multiple retired guns and thus this is challenging.I would much prefer to reserve this for remote controlled devices or grouptraining sessions. However, I do have some useful set-ups that I employ WalkBacks.Bread and Butter? Simple Stand Alones.Comment on Pete’s video: Well done and great teaching ofreturn to place by young dog. First mark is a simple Stand Alone. Then hedoes a Send back. Then he does something I have never and will not do. He repeat throws a bird to mark one, moves and throws another. His dog gets last and thenhe does a Send Back and then he casts to memory mark. The cast is an over but thecorrect cast is NOT an over. He is handling a dog on a memory mark from aremote position (this is now like a marked “blind” in many ways). The dog doesnot take the cast given but instead returns to an old mark. I think this is greatfor memory but is fraught with problems for inadvertently teaching the dog the wrong thing. In essence the dog does not take the cast (because the handler lied to the dog) and the dog return to an old fall and gets rewarded.I don’t want to get into a battle with Pete because I respect his dog work but I wanted to point out how I think the dog gets a very different lesson than might be intended even though the dog “appears” to have done something extra special. I noted that several folks thought this was a neat video and I felt it was worth discussion. Cheers Pete feel free to provide feedback in the interest of progress here.
    Last edited by RetrieversONLINE; 03-14-2013 at 09:10 PM.
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    I apologize in my last post for all the run on and jammed up text. I tried everything to clean it up to no avail. Finally, I said I hope you can read it was more important than not posting
    Dennis

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    OH so it was not just me! Enter did not work nor did my edit function
    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    I apologize in my last post for all the run on and jammed up text. I tried everything to clean it up to no avail. Finally, I said I hope you can read it was more important than not posting
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  8. #48
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    I do the same thing and have for a while. I don't send them on back though. I tell them kennel and they run jump on the sport stand. I use it do I know they don't creep. I have one knuckle head that I have to handle fairly often but it hasn't had any impact on his blinds.
    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    My concern is sending on "back",, then sometimes handeling her to the pole to sit..

    Its like I am running a blind,, but no bird planted... Thats what I am concerned about....

    She seems to understand,, cause most times she runs right to the pole sits,,,, turns around and looks at me wanting the throw..

    Gooser

  9. #49
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    Then hedoes a Send back. Then he does something I have never and will not do. He repeat throws a bird to mark one, moves and throws another. His dog gets last and thenhe does a Send Back and then he casts to memory mark. The cast is an over but thecorrect cast is NOT an over. He is handling a dog on a memory mark from aremote position (this is now like a marked “blind” in many ways). The dog doesnot take the cast given but instead returns to an old mark. I think this is greatfor memory but is fraught with problems for inadvertently teaching the dog the wrong thing. In essence the dog does not take the cast (because the handler lied to the dog) and the dog return to an old fall and gets rewarded.I don’t want to get into a battle with Pete because I respect his dog work but I wanted to point out how I think the dog gets a very different lesson than might be intended even though the dog “appears” to have done something extra special. I noted that several folks thought this was a neat video and I felt it was worth discussion. Cheers Pete feel free to provide feedback in the interest of progress here.
    Good catch Dennis.
    I'll attempt to explain my ration-al behind the over or perceived lie ( depending on the point of view or take on things) to the dog.
    These are 9 -10 month pups so they are still green. They just spent a few weeks learning mama papa's where I throw a mark on either side of me done as a double. its just easier for me to do it this way. The dog learns to go twice to the same gun station also. So when I give an over and a release at the same time ,,I am attemting to push the dog off my station and onto a new station. the overs will be dropped when I see the dog looking at the next mark,, which is tricky because the longer I do this the more ingrained it will be for the dog to look at me for direction. Right now they come back and look at me,,and I don't want to send them with out a push over ,,so as to help them move over on the field and get them rolling on the correct line. Soon with the aid of binoculars I will drop the over.
    Also during the transition process when we are working on keeping the dog coming straight back ,,we will sometimes give and over to keep a dog off of something or go through something,,,and often the dog only angles in to hit the objective instead of taking the literal over. This also diminishes the swimby response Also sometimes we blow a come in with an over to get an angle in.. All training morphs as it progresses and the over will slowly diminish as I trust the dog more and more to go in the right direction. I have to type without thought or it will eat my time. I hope that was a good explanation,,,my time to post is very limited before I loose all the content.
    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 03-14-2013 at 11:46 PM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  10. #50
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    Pete said:
    Yes, it's a great advantage especially for down the shore marks. You can teach without breaking momentum. But eventually you still need a gunner and a dog handler to shore it up and make that behavior stronger. It's important that the handler makes corrections from the line also during the decheating procedure
    Here's an excerpt from a journal dealing with down the shore expectations. All four of my pups were taught with this approach.

    Right after swim-by, the next step is to do channel and parallel swims. Each reinforce the new standard for more water (or stay in the water). At first, the parallel/channel swims are nothing more than an extension of swim-by. Since each pup is familiar with getting in and out of the water at the over pile position in swim-by, the corner is used for the first, simple decheating introduction.

    During this time frame non-cheating water marks are the norm. In addition, each pup has been gradually and extensively introduced to place boards. They learn to cast to them (or the line) and run remote marks off them (land and water).

    Their very first real down the shore set of singles is done remotely on the Stoughton FT grounds (southwest pond).

    1st down the shore singles – solo training


    Singles are thrown from the shore and the pup is remotely released from the line. The first single is not terribly cheaty, but in most cases the pup needs to be cast to stay on line. Since the trainer/handler is in the bird boy position, it becomes a very simple exercise to cast back (more water) and over (on line). This approach is clear to a pup because that's exactly how he was kept in the water on swim-by during the initial walk overs. The mark is returned to hand in the field and the pup is cast back to the line.

    There are two facts to keep in mind 1) handling to correct a line is an acceptable practice (not to the mark, but to the line of a mark) and 2) the pup has just recently learned the more water expectation (swim-by, parallel swims and corner decheating).

    The handler (in the field) can effectively counter shoreline suction by using back (more water). Through repetition on the more difficult second and third down the shore singles, four pups over the years got the picture very quickly. This was indicated by how they actually did better on each successive mark even though the angles/distance became more difficult.

    If the trainer were at the line and wanted an over (because the dog wanted to beach), what difference is there in the message if the handler is in the field and gives a back? In either situation, the message is the same......more water. When teaching from the stand alone position, the message is more personal.

    Distance impacts control and responsiveness. Less distance (in the field) provides a handler with more influence over the pup's decision making process. Physically blocking and asking for a back is much more effective than asking for an over from afar. The handler in the field can easily move closer to the water and make two casts (back and then over). At this stage in the dog's skill level, the lessons are congruent with swim-by's message.....more water.

    When a trainer/handler moves to the line, this earlier, remote line presentation provides for a seamless transition.
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 03-15-2013 at 01:00 AM.
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