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Thread: Training alone question

  1. #51
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    Then hedoes a Send back. Then he does something I have never and will not do. He repeat throws a bird to mark one, moves and throws another. His dog gets last and thenhe does a Send Back and then he casts to memory mark. The cast is an over but thecorrect cast is NOT an over. He is handling a dog on a memory mark from aremote position (this is now like a marked “blind” in many ways). The dog doesnot take the cast given but instead returns to an old mark. I think this is greatfor memory but is fraught with problems for inadvertently teaching the dog the wrong thing. In essence the dog does not take the cast (because the handler lied to the dog) and the dog return to an old fall and gets rewarded.I don’t want to get into a battle with Pete because I respect his dog work but I wanted to point out how I think the dog gets a very different lesson than might be intended even though the dog “appears” to have done something extra special. I noted that several folks thought this was a neat video and I felt it was worth discussion. Cheers Pete feel free to provide feedback in the interest of progress here.
    Good catch Dennis.
    I'll attempt to explain my ration-al behind the over or perceived lie ( depending on the point of view or take on things) to the dog.
    These are 9 -10 month pups so they are still green. They just spent a few weeks learning mama papa's where I throw a mark on either side of me done as a double. its just easier for me to do it this way. The dog learns to go twice to the same gun station also. So when I give an over and a release at the same time ,,I am attemting to push the dog off my station and onto a new station. the overs will be dropped when I see the dog looking at the next mark,, which is tricky because the longer I do this the more ingrained it will be for the dog to look at me for direction. Right now they come back and look at me,,and I don't want to send them with out a push over ,,so as to help them move over on the field and get them rolling on the correct line. Soon with the aid of binoculars I will drop the over.
    Also during the transition process when we are working on keeping the dog coming straight back ,,we will sometimes give and over to keep a dog off of something or go through something,,,and often the dog only angles in to hit the objective instead of taking the literal over. This also diminishes the swimby response Also sometimes we blow a come in with an over to get an angle in.. All training morphs as it progresses and the over will slowly diminish as I trust the dog more and more to go in the right direction. I have to type without thought or it will eat my time. I hope that was a good explanation,,,my time to post is very limited before I loose all the content.
    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 03-14-2013 at 11:46 PM.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    Pete said:
    Yes, it's a great advantage especially for down the shore marks. You can teach without breaking momentum. But eventually you still need a gunner and a dog handler to shore it up and make that behavior stronger. It's important that the handler makes corrections from the line also during the decheating procedure
    Here's an excerpt from a journal dealing with down the shore expectations. All four of my pups were taught with this approach.

    Right after swim-by, the next step is to do channel and parallel swims. Each reinforce the new standard for more water (or stay in the water). At first, the parallel/channel swims are nothing more than an extension of swim-by. Since each pup is familiar with getting in and out of the water at the over pile position in swim-by, the corner is used for the first, simple decheating introduction.

    During this time frame non-cheating water marks are the norm. In addition, each pup has been gradually and extensively introduced to place boards. They learn to cast to them (or the line) and run remote marks off them (land and water).

    Their very first real down the shore set of singles is done remotely on the Stoughton FT grounds (southwest pond).

    1st down the shore singles – solo training


    Singles are thrown from the shore and the pup is remotely released from the line. The first single is not terribly cheaty, but in most cases the pup needs to be cast to stay on line. Since the trainer/handler is in the bird boy position, it becomes a very simple exercise to cast back (more water) and over (on line). This approach is clear to a pup because that's exactly how he was kept in the water on swim-by during the initial walk overs. The mark is returned to hand in the field and the pup is cast back to the line.

    There are two facts to keep in mind 1) handling to correct a line is an acceptable practice (not to the mark, but to the line of a mark) and 2) the pup has just recently learned the more water expectation (swim-by, parallel swims and corner decheating).

    The handler (in the field) can effectively counter shoreline suction by using back (more water). Through repetition on the more difficult second and third down the shore singles, four pups over the years got the picture very quickly. This was indicated by how they actually did better on each successive mark even though the angles/distance became more difficult.

    If the trainer were at the line and wanted an over (because the dog wanted to beach), what difference is there in the message if the handler is in the field and gives a back? In either situation, the message is the same......more water. When teaching from the stand alone position, the message is more personal.

    Distance impacts control and responsiveness. Less distance (in the field) provides a handler with more influence over the pup's decision making process. Physically blocking and asking for a back is much more effective than asking for an over from afar. The handler in the field can easily move closer to the water and make two casts (back and then over). At this stage in the dog's skill level, the lessons are congruent with swim-by's message.....more water.

    When a trainer/handler moves to the line, this earlier, remote line presentation provides for a seamless transition.
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 03-15-2013 at 01:00 AM.
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  3. #53
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    I can understand this. I have to hesitate sometimes and think what dog I'm running. Sometimes the hesitation is a good thing when casting to fast as alot of us do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    That way he didn't have to remember which dog he was running. Rizzo and I would tease him about it. He'd just grin.

  4. #54
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Kwick

    Thanks for taking the time to explain the rational of your method of more water, and decheating.

    Many times, People will say you can use "X" method to teach this, that, or the other thing, but they dont say,,, or like with your example ,,,show you how..

    The more I read your posts, and see your explainations of how and why you do it, makes me wonder why you dont publish some of this stuff.

    Thanks Again

    Gooser
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 03-15-2013 at 08:09 AM.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Kwick

    One other thing I was going to ask, but forgot,
    When you send dog back to "Place" do you hold that same standard on the for the "line", thus isnt he dog getting the casts as though the handeler was at the line?

    This makes perfect sense to me. First you teach or show the dog what you want (more water) then you basically repete the concept on the return, handeling from the conventional position..

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
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    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
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  6. #56
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard N View Post
    That way he didn't have to remember which dog he was running. Rizzo and I would tease him about it. He'd just grin.
    Remember the time Gordon Powers was running the two dogs he inherited from Mike Von Walters in the Derby? He kept trying to send one but was calling it by the wrong name... The dog kept flinching, but would not go. Gordy would send and the dog would flinch, Gordy would send and the dog would flinch. Gordy did this three or four times... The gallery was very close on the hillside there... Finally Gordy scratched his head... Thought about it...sent the dog with the other call name and the dog took off! The judges, gallery, marshal...everyone was rolling around laughing! That was at least twenty years ago... And Gordon is still running dogs! More power to him!
    Bill Davis

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