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Dog Trainers( Sit Means Sit)

12K views 52 replies 22 participants last post by  badbullgator 
#1 ·
I'm interested in knowing if anybody has used The Dog trainers from Sit Means Sit, Ive been watching some videos and have a friend who is interested and was wondering if anybody had any real feedback about them, The only reviews i can find are great but there is always some people that might not be happy, Seeing as i like to hear both good and bad before i make my decisions, Any feed back would be great, Thanks
 
#2 ·
Unlikely you'll get any good feedback from this bunch re SMS. We all train our own dogs (for the most part) and some are actually competitors.

You're better off checking personal references for the trainer in question and reviewing their resume. You can and should go check out audit a group class or lesson as well, to see if it meets with your expectations.

They have a wide variety of trainers and skill levels. You have to look at the individual franchise IMO to see what you think.
 
#4 ·
the owner of SMS is a man named Fred Hassen,probably the most misunderstood man to ever to have a brief stay here oh the RTF...used to spar with him on line as he rubbed many the wrong way with his less than traditional views on training dogs...got to know the man and his wife in person and turned out to be quite normal and not nearly as abrasive as his on line personna
 
#5 ·
I trained with a Sit Means Sit trainer before I was involved in retriever training. It's a franchise dog-training operation that uses an e-collar as part of their method. DarrinGreene is absolutely right, the trainers who purchase a franchise are trained in the method, but like all dog trainers, there are great ones and there are so-so ones and the franchise can never guarantee that each one will be great. Most of them will do a free demonstration and evaluation at your home, and I suggest you go watch one of their classes and see if it's for you.

I was turned off from the method when I asked my trainer at what point I could transition off of the collar (because I was considering showing) and she said "never." It did get my dog conditioned to the e-collar long before I ever did any retriever work though, LOL.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I get that same question when I have a customer using any type of correction, whether it be pinch collar or e-collar. My answer is "Eventually, the dog will have a set of well ingrained habits that don't require the use of corrections very often, if at all. The rules for most dog games specify now equipment at all on a dog, and the dogs perform fine. Having said that... WHY would you not want to have access to the training tool for the life of the dog?"

I get immediately concerned when people ask me questions like this because I know they are not fully bought into the method and probably won't be consistent with it's usage down the line, which only makes for bad press for my business. I don't want anything but well behaved dogs out there if they have been through my program.

SMS is like anything involving correction. Some folks are going to be skeptical, if not downright resistant because of it's nature. I find this especially true with e-collars. E-collars also drive the price up a bit, but... Once people see a demo of a dog who shows no ill effects from e-collar usage and is obedient as can be, they usually come around. SMS relies on that demo dog very heavily. That's one of the requirements of becoming a franchise. Your dog goes with you to school.

Quick disclaimer, all this info about SMS I'm giving is my observations from afar. None of it is proprietary. You can find out for yourself with a little bit of research.
 
#11 ·
It's still a franchise. If a person is a good dog trainer and spent adequate time proving their abilities in their chosen field they do not need a franchise to be a dog trainer. Their reputation in their chosen venue is more than enough to bring them business. There is not a business owner alive who will not declare that referals and word of mouth are the best marketing tools.
 
#12 ·
It is a franchise, but they target the people that are going to use Petsmart for obediance. I honestly doubt that anyone who plays the dog games would use Petsmart of SMS, but the people that want want Rover to walk on a loose leash and not drag them around the block are perfect candidates for SMS.
 
#15 ·
You mean the Sit means Sit has a website and provides regional referals to the trainers who pay the fee?
 
#22 · (Edited)
You mean the Sit means Sit has a website and provides regional referals to the trainers who pay the fee?
There is a central website where you punch in your location and it guides you to the right person locally. Comes up pretty high in the google listing because of the overall traffic rate on the site. The local person doesn't really need that much traffic, I don't think, for it to show up high in the listing. The top 4 listings in the "organic" section after the paid ads get 80% of the traffic or something. There's a lot to be said for popping up first.

It comes up 3rd or 4th in my area. I don't see it in yours. There may not be a trainer nearby you so the keywords don't appear in the site.
 
#18 ·
Just seams to me I've seen about 2-3 Sit means Sit people come and go locally. Doesn't sing of a "strong business/franchise" investment to me personally. Then again, who knows how many store front training stores/centers have come and gone too?

I know there are some staple training centers in the NW and what seem to be a group of very stable professional trainers who've been around a long while. Maybe the longevity and reputation of those training facilities(general, not field) overshadow the ability of a SMS business to be successful in the area?

As a few folks have commented, they liked the idea of a trainer having been through a program and another posted that one Red Lobster isn't as good as another. For me, to continue to seek a quality franchise I expect the same consistency and quality of the product no matter if I'm in Denver at the Corp. Offices or in my home town. For the inability to provide a consistent product in a dog trainer, I certainly wouldn't really feel that a dog training operation is a good choice for a franchise business. Something which deals with recipes and frozen food seems to be a more reliable model to follow when you're handing out $$$'s.
 
#20 ·
A long time ago (probably over 5 years), I went to a SMS "session" with a friend who had just bought a new dog and wanted to try them out. I had collar trained my previous dog, so I was familiar with the idea, if not their exact methods. I was really not impressed. There was little "teaching." Example: dog pulled on the leash, dog was stimmed until it stopped pulling on the leash. The owner was instructed to do nothing but stand there. There were no verbal commands that the dog could follow. The dog looked very confused and somewhat panicked. I don't think that is the way most trainers introduce the e-collar. Also, the payment structure COMPLETELY turned me off. You pay for "lifetime" training, and I think it was something like $1500 for a pet owner, plus the cost of the collar. Sorry, but I'm not going to put that much money down if I don't even know if this is going to work for me and my dog. I have also watched some of the videos online and I don't like the way many of the dogs work. Just not my cup of tea.

All just my opinion from one experience.
 
#25 ·
I met Fred about 7/8 years ago when my training partner had a Sit-Means-Sit training franchise here in the Seattle/Tacoma area. They were putting on a seminar. I picked Fred up at the airport. THAT was quite impressive. I walked in the airport looking for him and there he was with a 9 month old Mal. The pup was sitting on a frisbee waiting patiently for Fred to get his luggage. No leash, no collar. When Fred told the dog to heel, he stood up and picked up his frisbee and heeled along through all the people with baggage on wheels, kids, old people, etc. Fred is pretty interesting - at least that's how I remember the short visit. The next day at the seminar, he was pretty amazing. All sorts of people and dogs showed up - police dogs with their handlers, shy dogs, people/food/dog aggressive dogs. I think my lab was the only "normal" dog there that day. Not that the police dogs weren't well behaved - they were, just pretty excited about everything. They aren't the kind of dogs that lay around collecting dust. His demo included every dog there. I don't know where he gets his energy, but he truly was amazing to watch with dogs. His 9 month old Mal would not only retrieve stuff, behave perfectly in a busy airport, but would also "attack" the guy wearing all the padding on command, and then stop instantly.

But, like others have mentioned, it all depends on the trainer you deal with. I don't think they've cloned Fred, yet.

Fran :)
 
#28 ·
I met Fred about 7/8 years ago when my training partner had a Sit-Means-Sit training franchise here in the Seattle/Tacoma area. They were putting on a seminar. I picked Fred up at the airport. THAT was quite impressive. I walked in the airport looking for him and there he was with a 9 month old Mal. The pup was sitting on a frisbee waiting patiently for Fred to get his luggage. No leash, no collar. When Fred told the dog to heel, he stood up and picked up his frisbee and heeled along through all the people with baggage on wheels, kids, old people, etc. Fred is pretty interesting - at least that's how I remember the short visit. The next day at the seminar, he was pretty amazing. All sorts of people and dogs showed up - police dogs with their handlers, shy dogs, people/food/dog aggressive dogs. I think my lab was the only "normal" dog there that day. Not that the police dogs weren't well behaved - they were, just pretty excited about everything. They aren't the kind of dogs that lay around collecting dust. His demo included every dog there. I don't know where he gets his energy, but he truly was amazing to watch with dogs. His 9 month old Mal would not only retrieve stuff, behave perfectly in a busy airport, but would also "attack" the guy wearing all the padding on command, and then stop instantly.

But, like others have mentioned, it all depends on the trainer you deal with. I don't think they've cloned Fred, yet.

Fran :)
I don't agree with dogs being off lead in public areas. Police dogs are not off lead unless they are actively working. I have three local K-9 Handler friends, one of whom moved recently to San Diego PD and the others are in Monroe PD and another WSP Handler. They don't have their dogs off lead in public. It's a liability. It's a bad example to set for folks who don't know any better. I won't take my dogs to the sportsman shows again because they allow the general public to walk in with dogs whom are not part of the show. I'll assume that most "trainers" have their dogs with proper vaccinations etc although, the arrival of general public with pit bulls and various dogs just doesn't sit well with me. Unless you are working your dog in a private area they should be on lead or in a kennel. Not having a dog on lead in a public place with other stuff going on puts your own dog at risk no matter how well behaved. --
 
#26 ·
ahh good ol freddy:D
 
#31 ·
For $15,000, I will offer a "Little Happy Caesar Certified Dog Trainer" course.

You will receive a certificate stating you are a "Little Happy Caesar" trainer after, "10 days and a couple of two day follow ups". Wait a mintute, that's Schick Shadle Recovery Centers tag line.....need to come up with something more original..
 
#34 ·
While I do not know Fred personally, nor can I comment about his training, I do know how he conducted himself on this forum. It is easily searchable. I do know that I will never throw any money his direction solely based on the way he conducted himself on this forum. My opinion FWIW.
 
#35 · (Edited)
One thing that got me about Fred, is that he came across as a trainer, someone who said he could train dogs. I still remember the video of him running and handling at a NAHRA intermediate test. His dog was not quite trained to the intermediate level and his timing as a handler was bad. I thought it was a poor performance for a professional dog person.

I could never take him seriously as a retriever person, just another bull $h!t slinger.


Thought I'd add a PS later: I never had any problems with the way Fred used the collar. I believe it works and it's similar to the way Pete, Jamie the Pack Leader, Pat Nolan do; and the way the Dogtra obedience book that comes with their collars says to do it. It's not our mainstream Lardy method. Or the Smart Work method, Carr method, or Dobbs method either. But it works for some people and dogs. The more I can learn the better and that's a big reason I'm still on the RTF after all these years.

I'm not from Missouri but I still want someone to "show me" when they're touting their method. That video, and others, showed me that Fred didn't know what he was doing training and playing in my game. Anyone can BS, but like that signature line from someone here says: "The bull $h!t stops when the tailgate drops."
 
#47 ·
There it is. Fred tried to back up his method by posting videos here and I must say it was very umderwelming. That said I do think his system can work for non-retrievers. He can probably turn out a very obedient dog that will suite the average pet owner. A hunting/testing/trial dog not so much.
 
#36 ·
IM NOT EVEN PRETENDING TO KNOW MORE, I just think that that's a whole lot of corrections, I was taught give the command if no response give the command again then burn them until they follow through with the command, Every dog is different, I was asking about sit means sit not trying to start a pissing match, I don't know nor have i ever talked to this man named Fred and i meant no disrespect to him, I have a friend who wanted to see what they are about, I said i would ask around, Nothing more than that,, I love working with dogs and there is a whole lot i don't know, But i will say i'm going to learn and i will be my own boss in the field, I have people bringing their labs to me for help. If people think i'm pretty good with dogs then that's their opinion, But i know i have a long way to go, And i'm eager to learn,
 
#37 ·
Hi Squirrel Hunter. I probably shouldn't be talking about the Sit Means Sit method of using the collar. But, I believe the collar is set so light that it isn't a correction, just kind of like an itch that the dog can only sorta feel. So it's not a burn or punishment of any kind, just a vague itch. I've had it explained to me but I've never seen anyone actually training a dog with that method in person.

I will say if Pete and Pat Nolan use something very similar, then it works. Just because I don't know how to do it doesn't mean it's not a viable training method. But, it didn't cross over to retriever work to well with Fred and the dog he was running in NAHRA then.
 
#38 · (Edited)
My demo dog for the pet business is trained this way also Howard. I can't have a big reaction with a prospect client watching. I use a Dogtra and hide the control in my pocket most of the time. When I do re-enforce commands the client rarely notices. You might because you know the details but the client doesn't even see it. It's so subtle that all you get is compliance. The dog's ears may drop but that's about it.
 
#39 ·
I can't see it as bad if we get a politically correct collar method that is acceptable to the Molly Minivans of the world. To me it just has to work with most dogs and be humane. Heck, Wales and Australia might change their laws and allow collar training. :p

Ken, could this be the beginning of the end for your favorite training tool?
 
#40 ·
Advise is to go train with good people who know obedience. The franchise thing is a joke. Same as a computer franchise I once purchased and dropped. It's always about the money and no quick solutions for any dog. I train with some very good obedience people right now. We are not using the EC right now because but going back to the old style of slip collar and learning hand and voice commands. Since we are on the subject does anyone clicker train their field dogs. I have found that this is a problem when you do into the field. I don't do it but the agility people insist on it??
 
#42 ·
My demo dog is trained with markers and has had only very minor issues transitioning to the field. At 10.5 mos old she's into land pattern blinds and getting ready for swim by then when the water here warms up. Very easy to overcome the little challenges if you understand the theory.
 
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