I'll have to disagree with that Cory
There is a huge misconception about the process.
Saying you can't get a dog to a high trial or HT standard is not true. I don't know exactly what Pat or Fred do but I do know I do something similar so I would file it in the same category pretty much. A high standard of obedience weather you use only food,e collar or pinch collar is still a high level of obedience as long as you use the same standard for each of those. This is only another way of introducing obedience at a young age and start a proofing process with the e collar at a young age and having the subject still maintaining a great attitude. You can carry it over to many things in the field also at an early age.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DmQ9sFJjb4&list=PL76368EFFCE7C486F
This was a tough test athough its hard to see,,,took lots of bottom and lining to do properly. My Fred type method used on this dog
But like all training ,,as the dog is faced with greater temptations or things that excite him ,,the levels go up. No different than any other kind of training. The only thing I see different is a dog who carries a better attitude through the processand still comply.
Some dogs still need the ole come meeting with Jesus session,,but most go smoothly.
I have a couple dogs here who were brought up with this method and they receive an MH and did well at an early age in the Q,,,,but here is the big but,,,they would have probably done about the same with traditional methods.
Pete