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Thread: Judging derby marks

  1. #31
    Senior Member Wade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn White View Post
    Does it say we are scoring which dog is more "cheaty"? I was just curious if that was the only thing to seperate the 2, why would the dog that stayed in the water not get the benefit. If this the line is the only factor ,or why would the dog on land get the benefit?
    Do your best to try and not set up "cheaty" tests in the Derby. As has been stated, if your dog stays wet and my dog stays dry but neither have hunted the bird what have you gained? Don't judge the line, judge the mark. As was also stated, find separation elsewhere.
    Last edited by Wade; 03-20-2013 at 06:50 AM.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Criquetpas View Post
    As far as judging the marks it's kinda like not so many years ago a behind the guns , then pick the mark up was the
    Kiss of death, even though the dog ringed the guns and put it's head on the mark. .
    Regretably this kind of judging is not a thing of the past, judging lines to marks is much too prevalent.
    Last edited by EdA; 03-20-2013 at 07:28 AM.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Kj, You might want to buy "Retriever Field Trial Judging A Manual". It can be ordered from AKC for $20. It has a very good section on Derbies. On page 51 (figure 1) it has a diagram of exactly the issue you were asking about. One dog runs around the water on the bank and the other takes a direct line. "The point is simply that in a Derby stake marking trumps lining and the marking dog should be scored equally with the dog who both marks and lines, and perhaps ahead of the dog that lines, but does not obviously mark."
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  4. #34
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    As someone that recently ran my first 7 derbies I have to say the water marks generally were pretty chesty marks. Not all setups but most. It's not the judges fault, when the good water was available we had more of a marking test. When it was just your plain Jane pond it was two down the shore, etc.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    Kj, You might want to buy "Retriever Field Trial Judging A Manual". It can be ordered from AKC for $20. It has a very good section on Derbies. On page 51 (figure 1) it has a diagram of exactly the issue you were asking about. One dog runs around the water on the bank and the other takes a direct line. "The point is simply that in a Derby stake marking trumps lining and the marking dog should be scored equally with the dog who both marks and lines, and perhaps ahead of the dog that lines, but does not obviously mark."
    Wayne I have this and also recommend the book. Great info!
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  6. #36
    Senior Member bcollins's Avatar
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    The derby dogs are so well trained these days due to so many people with access to good grounds a judge cant consistently throw square water entries and get answers. Nothing worse than 16 dogs finishing a derby and 14 people thinking they won the trial. Its a big boy game and as much as some people dont want to hear this good chance if you run the bank or get out early you are green because they will be some dogs that will do the test correctly and getting out early and going to the bird just will not get you a placement in a tough derby field. My opinion the days of the derby being about marking is long gone.The most popular water test in the derby is big memory bird down the shore you will see it week in and week out go run a few and if your dog will not stay in the water be prepared for your green ribbon. Again just my opinion if my dogs bail out of the water early i will be expecting the green.What i hate to see more than anything in the derby is someone throw the birds the wrong way (contrary mark). If i enter a derby dog i believe he/she trained well enough to do a water mark when we are running water it dont always turn out that way but that part of the sport you win some you lose some.Its pretty simple if one enters the derby with the mind frame that the derby is about marking and that a dog does not have to swim on a water mark you will leave disappointed more often than you will leave saying he marked well and placed even though he bailed out 50 yards early or didn't get wet on a cheaty go bird. To be on the safe side if you have a good little dog and are thinking of entering a few derbys get out and teach him to swim on water marks plain and simple because trust me on cheatys test they will be several dog do it

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  7. #37
    Senior Member Gary Wayne Abbott I's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post

    I don't judge the line. I don't judge whether the dog took water or ran around it. I judge the quality of the mark.

    Both dogs went to the bird without interruption. Neither dog hunted on the way to the bird. The dogs had equivalent marks.

    You tell the difference between a field of good dogs by setting up marks that are tough, so that by the end of the day, you have separation - and a winner, and three placements

    Isn't avoiding rough cover or water described as a fault in numerous places in the AKC Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers book? Additionally can a dog that doesn't go "directly" to the area of the fall be described as unnecessarily disturbing cover as described the following quote from Moderate Faults on page 54:

    "II. MODERATE FAULTS. (Infractions in this catego-
    ry may actually be so slight as to warrant their consid- eration as only a “minor’’ fault, or they may be so severe as to warrant their consideration as a “serious fault”; also, repetitions of a “moderate’’ fault or combi- nation of several of these faults may readily convert the total infractions into a “serious’’ fault.)
    1. Failure to mark the “area of the ‘fall,’ ’’ requiring that the dog be handled to the bird; worse on the first bird retrieved than on subsequent birds.
    2. Disturbing too much cover either by not going to the area or by leaving it.
    3. Reluctance to enter rough cover, water, ice, mud or other situations involving unpleasant “going’’ for the dog."



    I agree that lines are not and shouldn't be a judging criteria, but would not a dog that avoids water be noted as lacking in courage and or potentially unnecessarily disturbing to much cover?
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcollins View Post
    The derby dogs are so well trained these days due to so many people with access to good grounds a judge cant consistently throw square water entries and get answers. Nothing worse than 16 dogs finishing a derby and 14 people thinking they won the trial. Its a big boy game and as much as some people dont want to hear this good chance if you run the bank or get out early you are green because they will be some dogs that will do the test correctly and getting out early and going to the bird just will not get you a placement in a tough derby field. My opinion the days of the derby being about marking is long gone.The most popular water test in the derby is big memory bird down the shore you will see it week in and week out go run a few and if your dog will not stay in the water be prepared for your green ribbon. Again just my opinion if my dogs bail out of the water early i will be expecting the green.What i hate to see more than anything in the derby is someone throw the birds the wrong way (contrary mark). If i enter a derby dog i believe he/she trained well enough to do a water mark when we are running water it dont always turn out that way but that part of the sport you win some you lose some.Its pretty simple if one enters the derby with the mind frame that the derby is about marking and that a dog does not have to swim on a water mark you will leave disappointed more often than you will leave saying he marked well and placed even though he bailed out 50 yards early or didn't get wet on a cheaty go bird. To be on the safe side if you have a good little dog and are thinking of entering a few derbys get out and teach him to swim on water marks plain and simple because trust me on cheatys test they will be several dog do it

    Brady Collins
    This is realistic. Having seen just one Derby, it was easy to see the above is true. Derby dogs are young by definition, however and maybe not so reliable in holding onto their training in a trial. The dogs who are close to aging out at 20 to 24 months may be radically different than those who are 12 to 15 months - obviously.

    I've done my best de-cheating my dog and nearly done with swim-by, but not proofed by any means. Still going to run her this weekend at 13 months and see what we can do. She's a good marker and can count to 2. I think it will be fun to see where we are and how we improve over the next few months.

    Thanks for the good luck Kjrice! Hope to find you there wearing your land of the lost monkey suit!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Wayne Abbott I View Post
    Isn't avoiding rough cover or water described as a fault in numerous places in the AKC Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers book? Additionally can a dog that doesn't go "directly" to the area of the fall be described as unnecessarily disturbing cover as described the following quote from Moderate Faults on page 54:

    "II. MODERATE FAULTS. (Infractions in this catego-
    ry may actually be so slight as to warrant their consid- eration as only a “minor’’ fault, or they may be so severe as to warrant their consideration as a “serious fault”; also, repetitions of a “moderate’’ fault or combi- nation of several of these faults may readily convert the total infractions into a “serious’’ fault.)
    1. Failure to mark the “area of the ‘fall,’ ’’ requiring that the dog be handled to the bird; worse on the first bird retrieved than on subsequent birds.
    2. Disturbing too much cover either by not going to the area or by leaving it.
    3. Reluctance to enter rough cover, water, ice, mud or other situations involving unpleasant “going’’ for the dog."



    I agree that lines are not and shouldn't be a judging criteria, but would not a dog that avoids water be noted as lacking in courage and or potentially unnecessarily disturbing to much cover?
    I was specifically thinking about reluctance to enter rough cover on this thread. I don't often see two straight lines to the same bird but, I guess if the bird got up and walked away it could happen? A live flier maybe? One line will ALWAYs disturb more cover than another.
    Last edited by Paul "Happy" Gilmore; 03-20-2013 at 09:22 AM.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Wayne Abbott I View Post
    Isn't avoiding rough cover or water described as a fault in numerous places in the AKC Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers book? Additionally can a dog that doesn't go "directly" to the area of the fall be described as unnecessarily disturbing cover as described the following quote from Moderate Faults on page 54:

    "II. MODERATE FAULTS. (Infractions in this catego-
    ry may actually be so slight as to warrant their consid- eration as only a “minor’’ fault, or they may be so severe as to warrant their consideration as a “serious fault”; also, repetitions of a “moderate’’ fault or combi- nation of several of these faults may readily convert the total infractions into a “serious’’ fault.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Wayne Abbott I View Post
    1. Failure to mark the “area of the ‘fall,’ ’’ requiring that the dog be handled to the bird; worse on the first bird retrieved than on subsequent birds.
    Not applicable here

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Wayne Abbott I View Post
    2. Disturbing too much cover either by not going to the area or by leaving it.
    Not applicable here

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Wayne Abbott I View Post
    3. Reluctance to enter rough cover, water, ice, mud or other situations involving unpleasant “going’’ for the dog."
    Not applicable here. When I think "reluctance," I am thinking of a dog that slinks into the water, not a dog that runs with abandon around it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Wayne Abbott I View Post
    I agree that lines are not and shouldn't be a judging criteria, but would not a dog that avoids water be noted as lacking in courage and or potentially unnecessarily disturbing to much cover?
    Not by me.

    I think people are spending far too much time focusing on "desired training responses" - training - rather than "marking."

    See Rule Book, page 48

    Natural abilities are of great importance in all stakes, whereas abilities acquired through training are of less importance in the Qualifying stake than in those carrying championship points, and are of comparatively minor importance in the Derby stake.

    I think that judges need to remember that when you judge a field trial, you are judging a competition, not a training session. Why does it matter if a dog backsides a gun in competition? Particularly, if the gun is retired? But, you will hear judges and contestants comment about it all the time.
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