Last edited by Wade Thurman; 03-20-2013 at 07:50 AM.
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Kj, You might want to buy "Retriever Field Trial Judging A Manual". It can be ordered from AKC for $20. It has a very good section on Derbies. On page 51 (figure 1) it has a diagram of exactly the issue you were asking about. One dog runs around the water on the bank and the other takes a direct line. "The point is simply that in a Derby stake marking trumps lining and the marking dog should be scored equally with the dog who both marks and lines, and perhaps ahead of the dog that lines, but does not obviously mark."
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As someone that recently ran my first 7 derbies I have to say the water marks generally were pretty chesty marks. Not all setups but most. It's not the judges fault, when the good water was available we had more of a marking test. When it was just your plain Jane pond it was two down the shore, etc.
The derby dogs are so well trained these days due to so many people with access to good grounds a judge cant consistently throw square water entries and get answers. Nothing worse than 16 dogs finishing a derby and 14 people thinking they won the trial. Its a big boy game and as much as some people dont want to hear this good chance if you run the bank or get out early you are green because they will be some dogs that will do the test correctly and getting out early and going to the bird just will not get you a placement in a tough derby field. My opinion the days of the derby being about marking is long gone.The most popular water test in the derby is big memory bird down the shore you will see it week in and week out go run a few and if your dog will not stay in the water be prepared for your green ribbon. Again just my opinion if my dogs bail out of the water early i will be expecting the green.What i hate to see more than anything in the derby is someone throw the birds the wrong way (contrary mark). If i enter a derby dog i believe he/she trained well enough to do a water mark when we are running water it dont always turn out that way but that part of the sport you win some you lose some.Its pretty simple if one enters the derby with the mind frame that the derby is about marking and that a dog does not have to swim on a water mark you will leave disappointed more often than you will leave saying he marked well and placed even though he bailed out 50 yards early or didn't get wet on a cheaty go bird. To be on the safe side if you have a good little dog and are thinking of entering a few derbys get out and teach him to swim on water marks plain and simple because trust me on cheatys test they will be several dog do it
Isn't avoiding rough cover or water described as a fault in numerous places in the AKC Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers book? Additionally can a dog that doesn't go "directly" to the area of the fall be described as unnecessarily disturbing cover as described the following quote from Moderate Faults on page 54:
"II. MODERATE FAULTS. (Infractions in this catego-
ry may actually be so slight as to warrant their consid- eration as only a “minor’’ fault, or they may be so severe as to warrant their consideration as a “serious fault”; also, repetitions of a “moderate’’ fault or combi- nation of several of these faults may readily convert the total infractions into a “serious’’ fault.)
1. Failure to mark the “area of the ‘fall,’ ’’ requiring that the dog be handled to the bird; worse on the first bird retrieved than on subsequent birds.
2. Disturbing too much cover either by not going to the area or by leaving it.
3. Reluctance to enter rough cover, water, ice, mud or other situations involving unpleasant “going’’ for the dog."
I agree that lines are not and shouldn't be a judging criteria, but would not a dog that avoids water be noted as lacking in courage and or potentially unnecessarily disturbing to much cover?
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I've done my best de-cheating my dog and nearly done with swim-by, but not proofed by any means. Still going to run her this weekend at 13 months and see what we can do. She's a good marker and can count to 2. I think it will be fun to see where we are and how we improve over the next few months.
Thanks for the good luck Kjrice! Hope to find you there wearing your land of the lost monkey suit!
"Power is of two kinds. One is obtained through the fear of punishment and the other by acts of love. Power based on love is a thousand times more effective and permanent than the one derived from fear of punishment." Mahatma Gandhi
Last edited by Paul "Happy" Gilmore; 03-20-2013 at 10:22 AM.
Not applicable here
Not applicable here
Not applicable here. When I think "reluctance," I am thinking of a dog that slinks into the water, not a dog that runs with abandon around it.
Not by me.
I think people are spending far too much time focusing on "desired training responses" - training - rather than "marking."
See Rule Book, page 48
Natural abilities are of great importance in all stakes, whereas abilities acquired through training are of less importance in the Qualifying stake than in those carrying championship points, and are of comparatively minor importance in the Derby stake.
I think that judges need to remember that when you judge a field trial, you are judging a competition, not a training session. Why does it matter if a dog backsides a gun in competition? Particularly, if the gun is retired? But, you will hear judges and contestants comment about it all the time.
Competition does not build character - It reveals it.
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