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Thread: Embryo Flushing

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    Senior Member Josiah Greene's Avatar
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    Default Embryo Flushing

    Is this a common practice in the retrieving game? Is it even practiced? I know in the cutting horse game they'll flush embryos and plant them in a donor in order to retrieve offspring but continue the working career of a top female. I watched this last week, and thought -- this could be a good deal for the retrieving game. Now i'm wondering if anyone does it?
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    As far as I know it is not being done in dogs yet.

    Meredith

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    Senior Member Josiah Greene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwk56 View Post
    As far as I know it is not being done in dogs yet.

    Meredith
    I'm assuming that its a cost and availability issue? I think Texas A&M and Colorado State are the only places doing it for horses.

    If you could flush embryos from a solid female each heat cycle it seems like you could develop a high turnover of dogs and make good use on top males when there was a limited supply of sperm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josiah Greene View Post
    I'm assuming that its a cost and availability issue? I think Texas A&M and Colorado State are the only places doing it for horses.

    If you could flush embryos from a solid female each heat cycle it seems like you could develop a high turnover of dogs and make good use on top males when there was a limited supply of sperm.
    Im in the bucking bull industry and flushing is a common thing with producing females and there are places everywhere that does it!! I have no clue about dogs tho!!

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    Senior Member Josiah Greene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau M. View Post
    Im in the bucking bull industry and flushing is a common thing with producing females and there are places everywhere that does it!! I have no clue about dogs tho!!
    who uses your bulls?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josiah Greene View Post
    who uses your bulls?
    I do!! Mesa Pâté has hauled some, Mike White has hauled some and billy Jaynes has hauled some to PBR events but I really like the futurity game(2 yr olds) and go to a lot of those

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    Seeing that you are from Auburn, you may find help. I was a research forester for the institution for 26 years. I retired and "went to the dogs". We live 42 miles North of Greene, Lewis and Associates near Folsom, La. Around 7 or 8 years ago, while getting Dr. Gary Greene to do some frozen semen-surgical implant breeding for our Labs I found out that they routinely did embrio transfer proceedures with horses, with over 90% success rate. I asked him about dogs, and he said that it had not been successful, but I worried him agood bit and he finally agreed to give it a shot. (Dr. Maxwell is now at the Vet School in Auburn and he was present for the flushing.

    We got permission from AKC and UKC that if pups should result, they would register them. Mary Howley donated frozen sperm from Candlewoods Cash On the Line for the breeding and we used Gator Points R-O-C 'N' Moon Pie (Tatuhs' momma) to impregnate. When the eggs were ready, Dr. Greene flushed out 12 beautiful eggs and they were frozen and stored. Later one of Pie's daughters came in heat and at the right time (we all thought) the eggs were thawed and placed in the uterine horns and they followed their) progress on ultra sound. The eggs attached, but after two weeks, did not thrive.

    This is as best as I can remember (I have an advanced case of CRS and thing are not always as I remember). but I was the worry wart that got Dr Greene to do the proceedure. They did the work "at cost" and they have done over 75 frozen semen-surgical implant breedings for Gator Point and have only missed 2. One had a uterine infection and the other was a faulty timing kit. Since Mandy Cielinski Has taken over Gator Point her frist litter was 13 live pups. The second breeding was also 13 pups, but they lost two of the pups.

    At least it has left Cleo and I with some great memories and a lot of fun. Breeding dogs is not for every one, but it has been interesting and fulfilling for the two of us. Old age is calling though, but I wouldn't trade it for anything.Bill
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    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Watson View Post
    Dr. Greene flushed out 12 beautiful eggs and they were frozen and stored. Later one of Pie's daughters came in heat and at the right time (we all thought) the eggs were thawed and placed in the uterine horns and they followed their) progress on ultra sound. The eggs attached, but after two weeks, did not thrive.l
    Thinking the the frozen eggs might've been the issue, be interesting to see this done without freezing the eggs, and in different surrogates. I don't believe they freeze them in Horse and cows, just wash and place in surrogate. I do know that they haven't perfected the ability to bring human eggs out of cryo, not very good viability afterward. Still Dogs, are dogs, not horses cows or humans. Best bet would probably be fresh semen, fresh egg, ready to go surrogate. Inseminate (age in mom), wash tranfer to surrogate, maybe a couple different surrogates (with a good breeding history). Might flush eggs, and fertilize in a tube, that way you could watch the eggs be fertilized.

    My uncle trains Walking horses, they do the procedure all the time, has his vet do it at his stable, have a microscope and everything there, no special facilities, etc, you have to have the correct people there to document everything (very important in horses), they're a little strange you have to fertilize the egg in the dam then wash. For horses it would be easier to take the egg and fertilize in a test-tube, but registery will not allow it, DNA testing must be done on the colt later.

    Interesting Read for horses http://www.exodusbreeders.com/PDF_eq...yoOverview.pdf
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 03-21-2013 at 04:07 PM.
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    Senior Member Bally's Gun Dogs's Avatar
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    In cattle it is common to freeze the healthy #1 grade embryos to be implanted later. The grade #2 embyos are usually not frozen, but can be put in imediately with a decent success rate. Usually when selling frozen embryos, you sell three with a guarantee of one live calf. So the odds are not the greatest, but when you look at cattle one cow will likely produce 8-10 calves in her lifetime verses a bitch can do that in one litter. If it were successful in dogs some of the great bitches could be flushed and not taken out of competition. Another factor is cattle cycle every 21 days verses 6-12 months for dogs which can make the timing and then syncing up the recip bitch more complicated than cattle as well since the cow cycle is very easy to manipulate through different cycling programs which are proven.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bally's Gun Dogs View Post
    In cattle it is common to freeze the healthy #1 grade embryos to be implanted later. The grade #2 embyos are usually not frozen, but can be put in imediately with a decent success rate. Usually when selling frozen embryos, you sell three with a guarantee of one live calf. So the odds are not the greatest, but when you look at cattle one cow will likely produce 8-10 calves in her lifetime verses a bitch can do that in one litter. If it were successful in dogs some of the great bitches could be flushed and not taken out of competition. Another factor is cattle cycle every 21 days verses 6-12 months for dogs which can make the timing and then syncing up the recip bitch more complicated than cattle as well since the cow cycle is very easy to manipulate through different cycling programs which are proven.
    This is the best answer you will get on this subject!
    Very nice

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