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Derby Triples

11K views 51 replies 28 participants last post by  BonMallari 
#1 ·
I disagree. Good judges with good grounds and help can create separation with 8 good marks.


Not to high jack the "judging Derby" thread I thought we could start anew with something relatively close in subject matter. The above quote is from Ted on page 9. With everyone talking about cheaty lines, Deby Marks and separation why not add a 3rd bird once in awhile?

Someone mentioned and I would agree, dogs are so much better today. So if one believes that or thinks he needs a bigger test to separate do you have the kahonnies to set up a triple in a Derby? It was not an uncommon thing 30 years ago, why should it be now?
 
#2 ·
I disagree. Good judges with good grounds and help can create separation with 8 good marks.


Not to high jack the "judging Derby" thread I thought we could start anew with something relatively close in subject matter. The above quote is from Ted on page 9. With everyone talking about cheaty lines, Deby Marks and separation why not add a 3rd bird once in awhile?

Someone mentioned and I would agree, dogs are so much better today. So if one believes that or thinks he needs a bigger test to separate do you have the kahonnies to set up a triple in a Derby? It was not an uncommon thing 30 years ago, why should it be now?

Find me a third set of guns/bird throwers

Find me an area where you can throw a bonafide triple and where the third bird is actually has some substance to it and not some gimme, just so it can be called a triple....

Here is an idea used by some Derby judges (who coincidently just judged the Open)..use the same marks that were used in the Open, except cut one of the birds out....


I agree with Ted's opinion about letting the dog's play...
 
#3 ·
Bon, why do you have my last sentence highlighted? A 3rd bird is one person, whether it be a gimme or not the dog now has to extend his memory. I think the Open idea is wonderful and one I have thought about. However that is not always readily available. More times than not a Derby is done on Saturday or a Friday if it starts early, where the Open marks more times than not are on Sunday. If it works out that a set of judges can use a couple Open marks I am OK with that.

I certainly don't have a problem letting the dogs play either. Use the 25% rule of thumb rule or less depending on the work and move on to your next series.
 
#5 ·
Many moons ago, I ran a derby under Mitch Patterson and an un-named other judge. That judge wanted a triple. Mitch said "Over my dead body. The day I need a triple for a derby is the day I quit judging field trials."

I feel the same way about triples in the derby.
 
#6 ·
The Morgan trophy owned by the Wisconsin Amateur Field Trial Club, one of the oldest clubs in the country and donated by Charles Morgan. It is awarded annually to the club member with the most Derby points for the year, Wisconsin clubs and two Illinois clubs, Midwest and AARC. The stipulation is if a derby has a triple and the club member places in that derby, the trophy will not be awarded. Maybe the old guy was on the mark. I think so.
 
#8 ·

I guess that is all the justification you need. As for me, I will stick to doubles.
 
#12 ·
How come Verne and everybody else who is waaaay against them?

I've run a few derbies. I have never run one that had a triple(yet). I have never judged a derby with a triple in it either.

Philosophically, I do not have anything against a triple in derby. I do do triples with my derby dogs when they are capable. I often run hunt tests with my derby dogs and they have triples. Doesn't seem to bother the dogs at all.

What brings that much angst against triples in derbies? All the dogs have to run the same test and they're judged against each other.
 
#15 ·
Just because Howard. Thats as good a answer as any. I think it has to do more with tradition, help, last choice grounds, nothing left in the trial game for the little dogs, not sizewise. I personaly think the derbies are a dying stake and the qual is yesterday's derby, especially with OH , the stake in with hunt tests, in our neck of the woods pros dominate the derby when most are on Fridays. The quals are on Saturday with much bigger enteries. Older derby dogs can handle triples with ease. A derby career really starts at about 18 months. So just because.
 
#21 ·
As I often do, I find myself here agreeing with Earl. Why no triples? "Just because." Also, because the more birds you add, the greater the tendency is to have tight, technical tests, which reward the trained, lined response.

I got my start in FT in derby in 1999 and remember traveling all across the country and competing other amateurs. Now, amateur handlers in the derby are few and far between. I wish that clubs devoted more resources - judges, grounds, and help to the derby.
 
#16 ·
Triples in the Derby, why?

Retired gun in the Derby (double fourth series if needed) why not?

I have not and would not do a triple in the Derby.

I have and would again retire a gun on a double in a late series if warranted.
 
#19 ·
Throwing a double, there are just four ways you can throw it. If you expand to a triple you could go up to three times
that configuration. Now add some judges who want to be remembered for their mini national and it gets down right silly.
It will quickly get out of hand, fountains, indents, two retired where does it stop. If all judges were on the same page Ok, but, they are not. I have judged many derbies, put a bunch on the derby list, but, never set up or run a triple in the derby. You can retire a gun by sitting down out of sight from the line nothing wrong with that and like Ed have retired some and ran some. Just think with bird placement, conventional wisdom, you can put two birds out there most of the time that will test the little dogs marking. I still think in my previous post it is a dying stake.
 
#24 ·
I judge Derby and Qual and have never judged an all age. Reason, I can set up a test where I can just watch dogs work without worrying about cutting the numbers down. Why a triple when a double done properly can do the same thing. I have always felt a derby is more about natural ability than trained ability. Even if you brought all dogs back which is my goal you can tell who's in the ribbons after the 2nd series. When I start I hope all dogs pick up the birds even though some will do it much better than others.
 
#25 ·
O/H derbies

Why not go with owner-handler derbies? I think it would encourage more newbies to play the game, and encourage more new people to compete, with no pros and their "trained" dogs to deal with. No need for triples, retired guns, etc. Maybe even save the Derby as a stake!:razz:
 
#27 ·
Why not go with owner-handler derbies? I think it would encourage more newbies to play the game, and encourage more new people to compete, with no pros and their "trained" dogs to deal with. No need for triples, retired guns, etc. Maybe even save the Derby as a stake!:razz:
Some clubs can barely put on a derby now. Many of those handlers you are speaking of are in the HT game these days...
 
#26 ·
It would not bother me one bit to run or judge a wide open triple in the derby, where the guns are very visible to the dogs on their way to the marks. I have seen plenty of derby marks that were retired to ealier until the dog almost trips over the guns. If I had a big field of derby dogs I was judging and the field was very close after 3 series would like to throw a good triple to find the best markers. Lets be real lots of times a hooked gun is the difference between green and blue. I know as a competitor I would much rather run a very tough setup and fail than hook a gun on one of eight marks and that's the only difference between the top five dogs. Would not bother me to see a triple in the first series and last. You know each of us has our own judging styles and that is what keeps our sport fresh. If everyone did the same thing all the time you might as well go play bingo. JMHO Chad
 
#30 ·
The derby can be an event to grow the sport with new people and still reward the best marking dogs and I think keeping it as doubles will help foster that.

I've only run a few derbies but I'd like to see the double stay the norm. It's pretty intimidating for a newbie to run one as it is. As has been discussed, throw in a triple becoming the norm and not only are you rewarding the more trained and conditioned dog but also that more experienced handler quite a bit - and I think unneccessarily so. I'm not saying the more experienced handler and trained dog shouldn't have an advantage in a derby - but I think with a properly placed double that they already will and that the newer less experienced handler will be more likely to train for, pay the $80 and try, and hopefully train more and try again if the expectation is it will be doubles.

I'd much prefer to see a retired gun in a derby than a triple when circumstances (big entry field, time, grounds etc.) dictate or allow. I think well placed marks that can provide answers and separation are out of sight to the dog for either a good amount or at various intervals of their time enroute to AOF as it is.
 
#31 ·
I disagree that the derby (or the qual) for that matter should be designed with the newbie in mind. Field trials by their very design will never appeal to the masses because most (not all) people want far more instant gratification than field trials are designed to deliver (hence the proliferation of all the other retriever games). On the other hand, field trials will never go away either because there will always be some (not most) retriever people who want to compete with their dogs against the very best even if that means going home most weekends defeated by superior performances. As applied to the derby, I think judges should be concerned with putting out very challenging marks without regard to whether that appeals to the newbie or not. With the quality of the dogs, I don't think judges have the luxury most weekend of throwing a lolly pop first series just so everyone gets the first two birds clean. I don't personally think focusing on challenging marks requires retired guns or triples but wouldn't have a problem running under a judge who chose to use retired guns or triples in setting up their tests on their weekend to judge.

Greg Heier
 
#32 ·
You really think this sport is growing??? I go to EE and see the same names at the same trials for the past few years. I am all about competition. However, in my opinion this sport seems to be for people that have the means (money) to have pro train their dogs or amateur who has multiple dogs and can afford to train and enter enough events to compete. Add triples to the derby, were does it stop and it becomes where the guy with one pup that he trains himself cannot compete with all pro trained bullets that the pro brings to the fight. Please do not think I am degrading folks that have the means play this game at the highest level. I already devote more money and time than I have to play and if I had more of both I would put all I could in. The point I am making is the game is tough enough as is...don't take the guy with one dog out of this game by making it harder. I agree with Mr. Shih and some other...they seem to set up derbies where everyone can compete and the best dog that day wins!!!
 
#33 ·
I do think that we need to have a place for entry level persons to enter FT - that being the derby or the Q.
I am not opposed to O/H Derbies, although my club would not have one because we rarely have enough dogs for a derby with pros. But, like the O/H Qual (which we also do not have), I think that clubs should be given the option.
I think that - at the end of a day - you need to have a winner, and like Greg says, you cannot - given the quality of the dogs today - give away any birds.

BUT with
- good grounds
- good judges
- good help

I think that you can have wide open marks that create plenty of separation. I know, because, I ran a few of them last year. But, it's a tough proposition. I remember several of the derbies that I ran were against pros with 6+ dogs on their trucks.
 
#35 ·
Now I am just rambling but with the number of quality dogs today and most everyone says the dogs are better trained today, let move the derby age back to 18-20 month age limit. Just saying, its not uncommon for dogs to win a Q at 18-20 months and some competing in AA that early. So make it a true derby to evaluate just marking for young dogs. Then you would make QAA an AKC recognized accomplishment...just my thoughts if I were King for a day.:p
 
#42 · (Edited)
This is really not a bad idea, maybe 20 months but not 18. I do not like the idea of OH derby. Don't particularly care for OH quals either. I am technically a pro but not full time and nowhere near the caliber of some of the big boys. This would put me out of running the two or three client dogs I get that are capable and I don't have the ability to travel all over to other trials. I think DQ's fill the notch just as well as an OH event especially held by a hunt test club in conjunction with their HT, at least in my part of the country. Most pros aren't going to bother attending a DQ when they have a truck load of AA dogs. I also agree with Susan I don't want to see a derby or qual dumbed down just to attract new people. FT are for people that are serious about training their dogs to compete at a higher level so if your not serious enough to put in the effort to run at that level then stay in HT, that is what they were designed for.
 
#36 ·
I am sure the little problem of needing 10 dogs in a derby would prevent an O/H Derby in most areas.
 
#37 ·

It would for the Rocky Mountain Retriever club. We have a hard time getting 10 dogs. But, again, I am not opposed to other clubs having an O/H Derby, just as they have an O/H Qual (which we do not have). It's about choice.
 
#40 ·
I think with triples you get away from marking as primary importance and focus on trained concepts like selection. I think derbies already have too much focus on straight lines and technical concepts. With good terrain you can pick two good spots to place birds and avoid concept marks where it seems you waste one of the marks setting up your long bird. By wasting go birds you then only have 4 marks to judge.
 
#43 · (Edited)
I should have added "you need 10 dogs for the points to count."

In recent years if a pro didn't come to your Derby you didn't have one. I guess you could have one with 4 dogs if you wanted but no one would.

Derby dogs are with Pros 'cause it's hard as hell to get a dog ready for one if you work full time and live where it's cold.

I have heard of clubs trying to have an O/H Derby along with their O/H Qual at a Hunt test and in some areas that may work.

Let's not forget that most, if not all the Pro handled dogs in a Derby are actually owned by amateurs. Most of the Ams are quite capable of running the dog but don't for many reasons. Time and distance being a big reason. The concept of a Field Trial is to find the best dogs. If you limit the entries to exclude the best dogs from entering you kind of take away what winning a Derby means.

(I agree with Susan, didn't see her post before I hit submit.)
 
#44 ·
I am in favor giving clubs choices when it comes to events (O/H Qual)
I am in favor in promoting the introduction of newcomers to the sport
I am in favor of trying new concepts

I voted for the O/H Q - even though my club will likely never hold one
I would vote for the O/H Derby - even though my club will likely never hold one
I would vote for a Rule change which would allow clubs to hold Opens without needing to hold an Amateur - even though my club would likely never do so
 
#46 ·
I
I would vote for a Rule change which would allow clubs to hold Opens without needing to hold an Amateur - even though my club would likely never do so
Holding an Amateur without an Open would be what would really shake up the status quo..... and actually reward the worker bees who actually are hands on and are the life blood of the sport and make the trials happen.

I don't see it happening though
 
#45 ·
I think the derbies are the one stake where the pros are at a disadvantage.

-Pros spend a lot of time traveling, during trial season Derby dogs are missing out on at least 3 days a week of training.
-Training on the road often gets more assembly lined, where all the marks are setup for all the dogs.
-And, Pros are always having to hurry with their derby dogs at the trials.

Don
 
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