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Thread: Question for upland hunters

  1. #11
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    If your dog reliably stops, that's what matters. It doesn't matter to me how you achieved it.
    But it can matter on how they hunt. I WANT a flushing dog that believes it will catch the bird. I encourage the dog to catch the bird. I want the dog more concerned with catching it, than flushing it to an OB command of 'Sit' where the reward is just the 'retrieve'. That momentum is not a 'subtle difference' to the dog. That's where picking up ducks separates from upland hunting.

    The 'control' built in is the dog working to catch the bird in your gun range. And from my experience a wild pheasant only runs as fast and as far as you push it. It flushes when it runs out of room, runs back into you, or gets too nervous from being tracked. Few stop and hide - albeit that's a bonus and I've found largely weather related.

    The only downside to the dog believing it will catch the bird is the delivery of un-shot ones on the occasional game farm hunt.

    And above all - Sit means Sit.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  2. #12
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Believe me, I understand what you are saying.
    9 times out of 10, I want the dog on the bird as soon as it hits the ground.

    But, 100 times out of 100, I want the dog to stop, when I hit the whistle.

    I don't want my dog running over hill and dale, flushing roosters while chasing a bird that was either wing-tipped, or completely missed. I don't want the dog running after a low flying bird, and blocking my shot with his head.

    When I want the dog to break, all I have to do, is say one word. His name.
    It works. No lie.

  3. #13
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    I'm not going to argue sides here, I can see both points. For me and the pheasant hunting I do I let the dog flush the bird, then I focus my attention on the bird, with my dog in my periphial view. As long as the shot is safe I take it, otherwise I, and my well coached hunting partners, will pass. I really can't remember a low flushing bird that was unsafe for the dog, but it could happen. NAHRA enforces a "sit-to-flush" standard in their senior test so I train for it, but maybe because I'm lazy, I have allowed that standard slip when I'm hunting. It hasn't been a problem for me, but I wouldn't argue with someone who believes sitting to the flush isn't a better option in real hunting.

    My dog are 100% on the sit to whistle which I use a lot when I'm hunting.

    John

  4. #14
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    Believe me, I understand what you are saying.
    9 times out of 10, I want the dog on the bird as soon as it hits the ground.

    But, 100 times out of 100, I want the dog to stop, when I hit the whistle.

    I don't want my dog running over hill and dale, flushing roosters while chasing a bird that was either wing-tipped, or completely missed. I don't want the dog running after a low flying bird, and blocking my shot with his head.

    When I want the dog to break, all I have to do, is say one word. His name.
    It works. No lie.
    Whistle Sit or "Whoa" or "Sit". I want the dog under the bird until I know it's a no shot bird. That's my point.

    Blowing off Sit or Recall is a different issue entirely.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  5. #15
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    Whistle Sit or "Whoa" or "Sit". I want the dog under the bird until I know it's a no shot bird. That's my point.

    Blowing off Sit or Recall is a different issue entirely.
    I understand your point, and I even agree with it.

    But, I disagree that blowing off a sit or recall whistle is a different issue entirely.
    They might not be the same thing. But, they are closely related.

    Like I said earlier, I look at it like swim by.
    My dogs aren't required to swim past me on the return from a water blind.

    But, swim by gave me the ability to put them in the water when they want to run the bank, and to keep them in the water, when they want to get out early.

    I don't demand that my dogs sit-to-flush when I'm "really" hunting.
    But, having taught them sit-to-flush, gives me an extra level of control when I really need it. It gives me something that I can fall back on, and maintain a balance.

  6. #16
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    I don't demand that my dogs sit-to-flush when I'm "really" hunting.
    But, having taught them sit-to-flush, gives me an extra level of control when I really need it. It gives me something that I can fall back on, and maintain a balance.
    That's where you lose me. Hunting (for me) the objective is the recovery of the bird - I believe best served with the dog closest to it's fall as possible. The 'level' of control when a SIT or WHISTLE SIT is required is just that - SIT. No exceptions. I'm not clear what sit to flush bakes in there unless a flushed bird is too big a distraction for SIT.

    One better - if you can't trust SIT on a flushed bird with a command - you can't trust control of the dogs pace working one either.

    Swimby is a discipline not applicable to upland hunting. In fact it's not hunting at all.

    For testing - even the mean ole AKC let's you blow a whistle on a walk-up bird. And thank God because the last one I got the darned dog sat (from acclimation) on the duck call as I kept walking, watching the bird being thrown.

    Some things are best served 'automatic' and some things ain't.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  7. #17
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    It doesn't take many reps of releasing the dog on the shot, for it to regress into breaking again.

    They want to break.
    Just like they want to cheat.

  8. #18
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    But it's not 'breaking' or 'cheating'. It's working.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

  9. #19
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HNTFSH View Post
    But it's not 'breaking' or 'cheating'. It's working.
    Not to a dog.

  10. #20
    Senior Member HNTFSH's Avatar
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    Might be breaking or cheating to a duck dog. It is working for an upland dog. Or a good dual-purpose dog.
    We shoot dogs with a Canon

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